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Welcome to the United States of Europe

Gordon Brown has arrived in Lisbon and has signed the EU Reform Treaty.

What a rotten b*****d.

Huh? What does it mean?

Quote:

Originally posted by natjake2504
eh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_Reform_Treaty

I don't understand. And don't ask me to look at that site because my geography is worse then Jade's. Will the UK be a state?

José Sócrates
so that guys our President?

Can I just point out that it hasn't been passed by Parliament yet, but should it be passed successfully, there will be a president of Europe.

It's what the recent demand for an EU Referendum was about.

I don't get this one bit :S

Quote:

Originally posted by Matt
Can I just point out that it hasn't been passed by Parliament yet, but should it be passed successfully, there will be a president of Europe.

It's what the recent demand for an EU Referendum was about.

So the Uk will become a state of the USE? lol

Quote:

Miliband signs Britain away

FOREIGN Secretary David Miliband signed the hated EU treaty - hours before Prime Minister Gordon Brown arrived in Lisbon.

Due to the PM's delayed arrival, Mr Miliband was the only foreign minister to attend the televised ceremony alone, amid a stream of prime ministers and presidents from the other 26 EU states.

Mr Brown also later signed the document - but behind closed doors.

The news will be a blow to the country's voters - The Sun's EU petition has received 28,000 votes saying no to the Treaty.

Today’s ceremony took place in the beautiful surroundings of Lisbon's 500-year-old Jeronimos Monastery.

Country by country, presidents, prime ministers and foreign ministers of the EU nations were called up to put their names to the document.

Only Mr Miliband went to the podium alone to inscribe his name on Britain’s behalf.

He also took part in the official “family photo” following the signing of the Treaty without Mr Brown.

The PM's absence is expected to prompt speculation that he did not want to be pictured signing the book.

Shadow foreign secretary William Hague said: “What will other EU leaders think of a Prime Minister who dithers for a week about whether he dares be photographed putting pen to paper?

“Does he think that other European prime ministers don’t have diary commitments too? Instead of leadership we have indecision, gutlessness and broken election promises. Britain deserves better.”

The developments come despite an eleventh-hour bombshell that it means surrendering control of Britain’s immigration policy.

The warning was issued to the PM last night as he prepared to wave the white flag over our right to make our own laws.

It emerged tens of thousands of foreigners facing the boot from the UK will be winners.

They will get new rights to overturn decisions by Britain’s Immigration and Asylum Tribunal.

It means failed asylum seekers will be free to take their cases to the European Court of Justice in Strasbourg — giving the final say to unelected EU judges.

And it is all thanks to a treaty critics warn is practically the SAME as the ill-fated EU Constitution, which bit the dust two years ago after the French and Dutch rejected it in referendums.

Amazingly, Mr Brown — who vetoed a referendum on the treaty here claiming it was different — now admits it IS a “semi-constitution”. Interviewed in The Times today, he vows to get tough with EU leaders — while accepting the treaty mirrors parts of the Constitution.

The PM says: “What I’m going to say to Europe is stop looking inwards, stop looking at constitutions or semi-constitutions or institutions for a long time ahead — and for the foreseeable future concentrate on the big issues ahead of us.”

Last night Neil O’Brien, whose Open Europe organisation has scoured the treaty’s small print, declared: “By signing us up to the rejected Constitution, Gordon Brown is giving EU courts the right to hear asylum cases.

Grilling

“This could mean that decisions made by UK courts to deport failed asylum seekers will be overturned by Brussels.”

The signing today surrendered more than SIXTY of the UK’s prized vetoes on EU decisions — forever.

The treaty puts in place a powerful permanent EU president and foreign minister. Powers will be handed to unelected bureaucrats and judges in Brussels.

Tory leader David Cameron blasted Mr Brown’s “betrayal” of Britain.

Mr Cameron said: “He doesn’t even have the guts to put it to the British people.”

This morning the PM was grilled by MPs in Westminster — meaning he would arrive late for the historic signing ceremony.

After finally arriving in Lisbon he was set to put pen to paper hours after his EU counterparts — leaving many of them furious.

Article 21 of the treaty declares it will be illegal for any EU state to discriminate on “any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or other opinion.”

It bars any member country from “any discrimination on grounds of nationality”.

Other clauses which hand immigrants more powers are included in Articles 4, 19, 7, 15, 16, 18, 45 and 47. The UK Government has confessed in the past it has great concerns about the measures.

Fortune

Former EU minister Geoff Hoon — now chief whip — admitted they should NOT have been applied to the UK.

He said last November: “There is clearly a risk that adding what is in effect an avenue of appeal at a very early stage in the process might be an opportunity of further complicating our existing asylum and immigration processes.”

There are currently 167,000 appeals against deportation heard by the Immigration Tribunal each year.

Hundreds more are then taken to the Court of Appeal until they are exhausted — costing taxpayers a fortune. The new powers handed to migrants threaten to clog up the European Court of Justice.

It takes an average of two years to deal with a case — even though the EU court’s role SHOULD be to focus on helping industry, not sorting out asylum cases.

The changes will also cost UK taxpayers a fortune as failed asylum seekers contest their cases while remaining on full benefits. Government figures show the average bill for supporting a refugee is £129 a week.

A two-year court battle would see an applicant costing the taxpayer £13,500 in handouts and around £3,500 in legal aid costs. With more than 150,000 appeals in Britain each year, the bill could run into tens of millions — as a direct result of the EU treaty.

The pact ALSO threatens to destroy Europe’s ability to compete against the tiger economies of India and China — thanks to the French.

Measures outlawing EU countries from propping up their own companies with unfair cash handouts will be diluted. The treaty will effectively destroy competition — and allow failing firms and industries to snuff out any hopes of the EU getting its economy into shape.

Every other EU leader has admitted the treaty is virtually identical to the doomed Constitution. Last night Labour MPs on the powerful Commons Foreign Affairs Committee warned Foreign Secretary David Miliband not to treat voters as fools.

Andrew MacKinlay said of the Constitution: “A majority of the public feel it and the treaty are one and the same.”

Mr Brown faces a bitter Commons revolt in January when he tries to force the treaty through Parliament.

Source: The Sun

Quote:

Originally posted by Chewy

Quote:

So the Uk will become a state of the USE? lol

In a way, yeah. The treaty virtually creates a United States Of Europe in all but name

http://thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/eu_referendum/ < The Sun's articles on the subject

It's funny how french people never heard of that. Firstly, none of our representants will sign it without a national vote and if they sign it, there will be riots.

Ah trust the Sun to put it in English:bigsmile:

Bloody Gordon:rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally posted by sunshine30
It's funny how french people never heard of that. Firstly, none of our representants will sign it without a national vote and if they sign it, there willb e riots.

I know. Labour promised us a referendum on the treaty in the Election Manifesto but never gave us it.

They've sold us out.

Quote:

Message original : Matt

Quote:

Originally posted by sunshine30
It's funny how french people never heard of that. Firstly, none of our representants will sign it without a national vote and if they sign it, there willb e riots.

I know. Labour promised us a referendum on the treaty in the Election Manifesto but never gave us it.

They've sold us out.

The Constitution was rejected by french people and Nicolas Sarkozy said he won't take part in any organization about that. He told us that if we didn't want that in 2005, we won't get it in 2008. People over here won't accept it.

http://thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/new...icle269097.ece < Where I got the United States of Europe bit

Quote:

Originally posted by sunshine30

Quote:

Message original : Matt

Quote:

Originally posted by sunshine30
It's funny how french people never heard of that. Firstly, none of our representants will sign it without a national vote and if they sign it, there willb e riots.

I know. Labour promised us a referendum on the treaty in the Election Manifesto but never gave us it.

They've sold us out.

Unfortunately, we have the most incompetent government ever. No EU referendum, the personal details of 25million people lost... It all stinks

Omg, hes sold us out, the erm to put it politely..."idiot".

Quote:

Message original : Matt
Unfortunately, we have the most incompetent government ever. No EU referendum, the personal details of 25million people lost... It all stinks

I'm against the Europe at the beginning. I mean, we don't have our nationality anylonger, we all share the same money and everything. I was more against the Constitution and more against this system of "states"

Quote:

Originally posted by sunshine30

Quote:

Message original : Matt
Unfortunately, we have the most incompetent government ever. No EU referendum, the personal details of 25million people lost... It all stinks

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with being friends with the member states, and trading with them, but when you're taking away our national laws and identity and forcing other nasty stuff on us... it's not right

Quote:

Message original : Matt
Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with being friends with the member states, and trading with them, but when you're taking away our national laws and identity and forcing other nasty stuff on us... it's not right

I haven't said you have a problem with being friends or anything else. I truely understand you about the laws and the personal items. Well I'm against the whole thing.

Quote:

Originally posted by sunshine30
It's funny how french people never heard of that. Firstly, none of our representants will sign it without a national vote and if they sign it, there will be riots.

Strange opinion that - France HAS signed it

Anything that takes power away from Labour can't be bad. The people that lead them are a bunch or incompetent fools.

Europhobia strikes again.

I would love those who fear european influence to list as a result of this signing how there lives wil be changed.....

What freedoms have you lost. Will you lose.......As an individual.

You would be far better being in fear of our own Governments be it Tory or labour than fearing Europe...

Quote:

Originally posted by bananarama
Europhobia strikes again.

I would love those who fear european influence to list as a result of this signing how there lives wil be changed.....

What freedoms have you lost. Will you lose.......As an individual.

You would be far better being in fear of our own Governments be it Tory or labour than fearing Europe...

What freedoms will we have lost? How about our sovereignty?

And as much as I disapprove of the xenophobic attitude our country seems to have adopted, the fact that the Conservative & Labour Parties know much more about British values, traditions and politics than some bureaucrats in Brussels do is enough to make me wary of European federalism.

Quote:

Originally posted by Shaun

Quote:

Quote...How about our sovereignty?

Answer

Sovereignty is more a percieved state of mind than anything else.

In practical terms what does the new agreement lose us as individuals....

We lose so called sovereignty when we pander to other cultures. Europe although a concern is the least of our worries....

http://washingtontimes.com/article/2...814033841/1013

Quote:

Back in the 'EUSSR'
By Paul Belien
December 19, 2007

Last Thursday, the heads of government of the 27 member states of the European Union convened in the Portuguese capital Lisbon to sign the EU Reform Treaty. That "Treaty of Lisbon" is almost identical to the European Constitutional Treaty, the so-called EU Constitution, which was rejected two years ago in referendums in major EU member states.

The EU rules stipulate that treaties only become effective when they have been ratified in all 27 member states. The "no" votes in the 2005 referendums killed the constitution, which would have transformed the EU from a supranational organization of 27 sovereign member states into a genuine single European federal state with 27 provinces. It was clear from the outset, however, that the peoples of the various European states were not willing to renounce their national sovereignty for a "United States of Europe."

Nevertheless, the European leaders are determined, no matter what their electorates say, to transform the EU into a USE. As Jean-Claude Juncker, the prime minister of Luxembourg, said prior to the referendums: "If the vote is yes, we will say: We go ahead. If it is no, we will say: We continue." Or as the former president of France, Valery Giscard d'Estaing, the chairman of the so-called convention, which drew up the constitution, said: "The rejection of the constitution [by the voters in referendums] was a mistake which will have to be corrected."

In order to correct the voters' mistake the reform treaty was drafted.

This treaty is a copy of the constitution, with the articles in a somewhat different order, with many additions to deliberately complicate the text and without references to a national flag or anthem.

As Mr. Giscard explained in June to the Paris leftist paper Le Monde: "Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly... All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way."

Or as Guiliano Amato, the foreign minister of Italy and the former vice chairman of the convention, said about the document that the European leaders signed last week: "They decided that the document should be unreadable. If it is unreadable, it is not constitutional, that was the sort of perception."

The EU leaders agreed that none of the member states (apart from Ireland, which is obliged to do so under its own constitution) will hold a referendum about the new treaty. Instead, the national parliaments will ratify the treaty. "There is a cleavage between people and governments," admitted French President Nicolas Sarkozy. "A referendum now would bring Europe into danger. There will be no treaty if we had a referendum in France."

Quote:

"There is a cleavage between people and governments," admitted French President Nicolas Sarkozy. "A referendum now would bring Europe into danger. There will be no treaty if we had a referendum in France."

It's exactly what I said earlier. :thumbs:

Quote:

Originally posted by sunshine30

Quote:

It's exactly what I said earlier. :thumbs:

Only, based also on your earlier comments you seem to have misunderstood it, so you may want to hold off patting yourself on the back.

the point is that you are not supposed to understand what has happened, you are supposed to believe it will not be applied, you are supposed to believe there is no "constitution",

Quote:

As Mr. Giscard explained in June to the Paris leftist paper Le Monde: "Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly... All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way."

and I am afraid the deception has worked, your comment proves this as you think the treaty will not come into force because you believe the French people have the power to stop it. This is not so

The French would reject it if there was a referendum, I agree, as does every other commentator. As would my country

so there will be no referendum - but your country has signed up to it .

As mine has also