Crisis of conservatism is destroying party, say grassroots Tories
 

Originally : EU vote: 130 MPs 'express regret' at lack of referendum bill

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22547910

It seems that some Tories are revolting .....:laugh3:

Voters are going to get really sick of the Conservatives going on about this, why on earth can't David Cameron go and do negotiations for better terms now in these 2 years before the election.
He cannot get a referendum bill passed obviously but he can start the negotiations,I doubt many MPs would not support that move now.

He then could hope for an overall majority in 2015,(it would need to be a big one though as the pro EU MPs in his party would be unlikely to allow a referendum to be held if the vote looked like being won by the come out voters),in order to get a referendum passed in the commons to be held within a year after the 2015 election.

As it is, he is saying this badly needs to be done but he is just wanting to leave it,firstly for a whole 2 years until the next election,then spend a further 2 years on negotiations for better terms from the EU to finally then hold a referendum sometime before the end of 2017.

None of it sounds credible or that he can be trusted with that,especially since something so important can be left by him for a further 2 years before he even starts to begin to do anything about it.

He isn't just asking for a signed blank cheque as to this issue from the voters,he is in essence asking for a whole book of them. Terrible leadership and a real mess too.
He must really think the voters are idiots,that they cannot see his manipulation of this issue.

I know a lot has happened with the EU in the time that has passed but even as late as around the start of 1990, had Labour been advocating this and had MPs voting as Conservative ones did tonight, it would have been branded as loony left politics by the Conservative party.

oh dear
david camon it not looking good for you

I really think by the time the next election is here, David Cameron will pay a heavy price for stressing the importance of the EU issue and then his procrastination as to it too.

You'd think seeing the massive rise of UKIP at the local elections a couple of weeks ago, it would be clear to Cameron that it's time to stop tinkering with his ideas on the EU and put a referendum into law. Back-benchers are pushing him because their electorate are telling them they want a referendum. The EU is a very different animal to what it was when this country voted us in forty-odd years ago and frankly, it's time we were asked the in/out question again.

IMO, he's already a gonner and won't be leading the Tories into the next election ..... :pipe:

I don't want to be asked in a referendum and that is despite my Parents voting no in 1975.Although they would now vote yes to stay in.

I don't believe the public, who may have little knowledge of the workings of the EU would in a referendum get a fair balanced argument from the media.
So much so I believe the UK could sleepwalk into leaving the EU since people just wouldn't be able to make their minds up and not vote,leaving those really anti EU to go out and vote to leave.

I would also question holding the referendum 2 years after an election too, why not hold the referendum when you can get the maximum vote out in a General election.
David Cameron vaguely says he would spend 2 years negotiating.(negotiating what would be a start to understanding this more), and then that he'd hold a referendum sometime before the end of 2017.

In 2015 we will have had an election,in 2016 there will be local elections, as there will be in 2017,then later in that year he is indicating he will bring in a referendum.
People will be sick of voting,it would likely get the lowest turnout ever.
The date of the referendum is one of the most important decisions that would ever need to be taken.

I certainly don't trust David Cameron with this issue and if he cannot lay better guidelines down than this now then he should never have opened his mouth and started this all off anyway since he has no intention of addressing the issue for another 2 years and only if he gets an overall majority.

Again though,what kind of overall majority, he needs to be at least 6.5% ahead of Labour just to barely scrape a possible bare overall majority at all.
He will have MPs who are pro EU, if the referendum seemed like being lost and he had say a 30 overall majority it would only take 20+ of his MPs to vote against the referendum and then he would not be delivering such a referendum.

That I believe is exactly what he would do, he would be bringing out the ''I haven't got the arithmetic to get the referendum bill through again'', because of his small majority.

Meantime we now have near 4 years of uncertainty as to the EU and Govt Ministers saying they would vote to come out in a referendum now and none can say what the PM will be looking to negotiate again in any detail.
What a shambles of a Govt. when the UKs economy is still far from stable,what a dangerous thing to have even raised and I believe the voters will be well sick of the whole saga by the time the election comes round.

This will I believe massively backfire on David Cameron and his govt, I just wish the Lib Dems would now becasue of this walk away and call his bluff, force an election and make him spell out all the details that are needed now,not 2 years time because most people I talk to haven't a clue really as to the EU and they certainly have no faith in David Cameron's word as to anything and clearly neither has near half of his backbenchers in truth after tonights farce.

David Cameron says he is relaxed about it all,oh yeah and I have just seen £10 notes growing on trees instead of leaves.
He is really a very weak leader and he has turned into a poor PM too,like Gordon Brown before him, not up to the job at all.

That could be the only chance now for the Conservatives to stave off a big defeat anyway.

Joey, holding an EU referendum on the same day as the General Election is a good idea, not sure how it would pan out legally. Also, local elections (District) are taking place on the same day as the General. And next May there are European elections. The MEPs have to step up and explain a lot of stuff, I reckon. People need much more information before they vote on Europe in my opinion. I've read a lot of information at work about Europe but I still don't know which way I'd vote.

As for Cameron continuing to lead the Tories... I wouldn't be at all surprised if he didn't make it to the next election, and Boris swoops in to save them.

I don't want any referendum in the pipeline until we've had a proper national debate on it, and one that isn't led by a sinisterly motivated right-wing press, as an audience member on Question Time succinctly put it.

Boris! out of the frying pan and into the bumbling, lying fire, trying to lure old tories that have defected to UKIP back with promises, I would be dubious about opting out... I don't trust them.

That wouldn't surprise me either Livia, I accept he cannot get the referendum bill through because the Lib Dems and Labour can block it.
His problem is that he should have said in 2015, he was going to set out to negotiate a better deal with the EU and then hold a referendum at the next election in 2020.
That would have made more sense.

However,as it is, he could now start to negotiate with the EU and have a clear picture of his success or failure by the election of 2015, which would then leave only the referendum issue to resolve,which could be held,if passed on the local elections day in 2016 then.
That is how he should have approached this in my view, not say it is very important we get a better deal with the EU but I am not going to do a thing about that for at least 2 years.

That is where he looks slippery and not genuine.
Now his party have jumped on the bandwagon and it is going off in all directions.
He should have foreseen that,he knows full well the divisions in the Conservative party as to Europe.

I was reading the period of the last referendum as to Europe,the common market, where Harold Wilson laid out in October 1974,his intention to re-negotiate with Europe for better terms, then hold a referendum.
He won an overall majority of only 3 in October 1974,yet he did the negotiations and held the referendum.
The whole process took about 8 months and the referendum was held in June 1975.

Okay, the EU is far bigger and more intricate than in 1975 now, however David Cameron might have been wiser to look at how that was done in 1974/5 and not even open up the can of worms until he was ready to begin negotiations.
That is weak and bad leadership of not only his party but his country too in my opinion anyway.

Therein lies the bigger problem with any referendum Jack, it is why I don't want a referendum either,even though I know how I would vote and that would be to stay in.
As you point out it would be really difficult to get a balanced argument as to the EU espeically from the press.

It is why a debate as to Europe needs a massive amount of time for same to ensure people can really understand the issues.
For me David Cameron has done a massively dangerous thing for the UK and our economy in hauling this dark cloud over our future internationally for the next 4 years.
For goodness sake,what possessed the man.

Eh from the main papers I imagine the Guardian, Independent, Mirror, Times & FT would be supporting the UK staying in, the Telegraph probably would just about as well but would allow a greater voice for eurosceptics, it'd just be the Mail, Express and to a lesser extent the Sun who would be staunchly calling for us to leave the EU. When you also consider that the three main parties all, to a greater or lesser extent, still prefer us to stay in then the balance is decidedly more in favour of the 'In' campaign than the 'Out'

I see nothing wrong with Cameron's original pledge a few months ago, where if reelected he would renegotiate the terms of British membership of the EU and then put it to the public with an In/Out referendum, and I think he should stop pandering to a Tory backbench pushing him to go further and further because they're in a panic at the rise of Ukip

All news corps incuding the times and the FT would want out.

almost as if they're run by the same person :laugh:

I still can't quite see the pros/cons of either, to be honest... seems we're doomed either way.

Don't think the FT is a news corp paper, and I'm not sure about the Times, yeah I know they're owned by Murdoch but they've always been a pretty centrist/centre-right paper and have never professed any overt euroscepticism

"Aye, we're doomed, we're all doomed!"

:eek:

The Times is definitely considered eurosceptic, the problem is although some press may not fully support withdrawal from the EU,most are in the main eurosceptic.
As a starting point that would not, in my opinion,indicate a balanced and fair debate being reported.

I agree with MTVN that all 3 party leaders would be in favour of staying in but what if David Cameron only got token gestures of change rather than anything substantial.

Then that would be the main headlines, 'PM wins nothing really from the EU'.
So having tied the negotiations to holding a referendum after that he has tied many hands really.
With headlines like that it could well be that more would still prefer to stay in but far fewer of them would make the effort to go and vote in a referendum, whereas those really set against the EU would cross mountains likely to make sure they got out and voted to come out.

There is just too much uncertainty to the whole process and I really cannot see the EU giving much at all to negotiations with David Cameron, the EU is much larger now, give concessions to one nation then likely many others will demand the same.
I cannot see him getting anything of much merit.
The EU would go on without the UK but our life could be made much more difficult outside the EU in my view.

You're right mtvn it isn't soz
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14030051?oo=420

Biggest Labour donor wants party to offer EU referendum
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22542083

:cool:

I think this is likely, it would now surprise me if Labour also don't offer a referendum to be honest.
Really any govt. worth anything should be trying to gain a better deal on things as to the EU.

If I was Ed Miliband,I would sit back and watch how all this chaos in the Conservative progresses before I made any commitment to a referendum.
He clearly doesn't want one but I do feel events will likely take over and he may need to offer one by 2015.

Even in that situation,if I wanted a referendum,which I don't, I would more likely put my trust in him to actually deliver one than in David Cameron.

I know of a good few Labour MPs who do want a referendum,the good thing for Labour last night is that they stuck by their leader and didn't vote for one while the Conservatives had near or even half of their backbench take matters into their own hands and vote against their own govts. decision not to include a referendum commitment in their govts.own Queen's speech.

Doesn't sound like a competent party for to continue in govt for me.

One thing is for sure though, Nigel Farage and UKIP have certainly strirred things up and made the biggest change as to politics in the UK by now not just setting the talking point agenda but also as to the main parties policy making too.
I expect Nigel Farage will be really enjoying watching all this develop and full credit to him for exposing the haphazard plans of the Conservatives and making the others likely have to think their positions too.

I agree, I was saying the same to my older sister the other day.

Miliband may be a mere MP by then, too ..... :pipe:

I don't think many actually know what a full opt out would entail, just opting out of EU crime and justice would have dire consequences, no wonder dave is dragging his heels here and he only has 12 months left to decide...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19946466