The Placebo Effect
 

So seeing as I'm in danger of taking another thread totally OT, and also that we have been discussing faith based issues recently, I would like us to consider the Placebo Effect:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catweazel
No its the placebo effect that works mildly with endorphins in the brain. A placebo will not help if you have lost a limb, have aggressive cancer or toothache. It is good for hypochondriacs however.


Me: Well there's no pill / therapy that will cure either limb loss or aggressive cancer, so those examples are irrelevant. You need to have faith it will work, how could anyone believe any pill could cure their limb loss? There obviously has to be the potential for a cure. Nobody with an aggressive cancer would have very much faith that a drug could cure them, although maybe one could offer some relief.

It's good for more than hypochondriacs, I can dig out some very good articles if you like? You obviously know how it works, both the patients on the real drug and the patients on the false drug, both having faith the drug will cure them, have similar success rates in their cure.

The Chinese firmly believe that mind and body are inextricably linked in the causes and relief of disease; I would tend to agree.

I've also seen people drunk on non-alcoholic beer, believing it's the real McCoy. THAT's funny.

What do you think?

I do agree Jezzy, the mind is a powerful and complex thing, and if you believe something strongly enough it's possible an effect will come into being.

The drinking example is a very good one, I've known that happen.

|Hypnotism is a good example of how powerful the brain is and endorphins are also powerful. Look at the rush you can get after intense exercise.

Religious faith is more just believing crap with no evidence (and not thinking or takling the time to learn basic astronomy or science for example). People use this "faith" as some kind of badge of honour when it is no such thing - its a hangover from a time when religious piety gave you power in the community.

Our imagination is very powerful, look at hypnotism.

Mind you, go smash in some religionists car and then tell them to have faith that god will mend it and see how you go...

So its really just a mild form of delusion?

Like voting for Linda

No, it's utter belief that you are taking a cure and the fact that that "cure" works.

It's the Placebo Effect we are talking about here, not generic faith, which is why I didn't quote the part of your post about Religious faith. That's *your* thread. This is empirical (measurable) faith, which should be an oxymoron but actually isn't.

The belief is based on scientific testing and knowledge. You believe that the person you are getting it from has been trained and that the drugs have been tested and developed over many years.


But what point do you wish to make about it?

That it's a form of faith that works.

Yes but its kind of like going over a long bridge and believing that it will not collapse. You are basing your faith in logic and evidence and not on a bog standard 2000 year old myth that was as common as camel dung at the time.

Religious faith, as i stated, used to be a badge of honour because it got you power and standing in your community. Now we see it more as a badge of ignorance.

I am not arguing that the word faith is bogus, its a catch all word in some respects.

Yea, it is, which is why I am trying to divide it into scientific faith and religious faith. This thread's for scientific faith.

..I think the Placebo/Nocebo effcts are fascinating...that we can 'think' our physical symptoms to be improved or be perfectly physically healthy and 'think' ourselves to have symptoms of physical illness etc... I think that you just have to look at people like the Shaolin monks to know that the mind is a very powerful thing....how great would it be to have complete control over it...

This in complete opposition to Catweazle's troll post (in another thread) about how the Chinese eat dogs therefore you shouldn't trust them.

Thank you Ammi and the serious posters, I think the Placebo effect is very relevant. We have a lot to learn from The Shao'lin.

Perhaps the placebo effect in some instances can be examined by the initial pain or ailment not actually existing but the person for a variety of reason has developed the pain as a form of psychosis a bit like munchausen's syndrome where the illness or pain is invented.

Now the mind is a powerful thing and although technically there is no reason for this pain the mind can create actual real pain if believed.

So in these circumstances both a real pill and a placebo will remove this pain as the patient believes he or she is being cured and so the mind will erase this pain in these circumstances.

In this example the belief a pill ( placebo or not) is the reason the pain disappears as the patient has invented the pain as part of a more serious psychosis.

No, the patient already believes their pain is real. Haha, sorry, I as was about to digress yet again, about the nature of perceived reality :P

But I should probably go to bed, nnight all :)

Happy bickering xx