[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

That's the saddest part of it, and a lot of people use the womens rights vs trans rights "war" to completely invalidate both parties and make them look terrible. I once heard someone say "well, women like to hate each other anyway" in a discussion about feminists (not here on TIBB)

And that's for any topic really, when you see that for example in some countries only men are deciding for women or are part of meetings about abortion and womens rights. It's...so wrong.

Well yeah. But you have also spent a fair amount of time on here saying that women are worrying for nothing? Which is kind of..the same thing to me, though not quite on the same level as men making the official decisions?

The current asks of transactivists (note I use activists, as transpeople do not seem to be as extreme in their misogyny) absolutely DO steamroll over womens current sex based rights. There is no doubt about it.

It is possible, to find solutions to advance trans rights. Without requiring women to lose their current rights. Just the current demands do not do this, they actively do take away the rights of female people. And this is why a lot of women are fighting back. Its not about attacking 'trans rights'. Its fighting to retain our existing rights, and saying we are bigoted for doing that, is..not good really.

As you seem quite adamant that current demandsdo not actually affect female people at all ad instead just help transpeople, can you explain to me how..as prisons are the easiest issue for people to see (though I always thought this would be sports)..the following does not remove the rights of female people, to be incarcerated with other female people.

A male person who is a transwoman (a male woman, when using both gender and sex I guess) is put in jail for rape. The current rules, and what trasactivists pushed for, say that this male woman, can be sent to the female estate. As their 'gender identity' is 'woman'. Even though prisons are split by sex, not gender. This move is automatic if the person has a 'gender recognition certificate' which means they have 'legally changed sex' (which is a mass of issues in itself) but even if they have not done this, they can be considered for a move to the female estate.

How does that not effect the rights of female people?

This is not a hypothetical. Its happening. And has already had the logical conclusion also. A 'male woman' in female prison, sexually assaulting, or/and raping the female prisoners. When this happens, sometimes the 'male woman' is sent to a different female prison as a 'solution'. Sometimes they are then moved to somewhere in the male estate, but by that point, there has already been victims that should never have been victims.

A situation that should, IMO never even be a possibility.

Acnowledging that this is a HUGE problem, does not mean I think all transwomen are rapists. It does mean that I think men will abuse such a system, and men already have.

And honestly, even one male person in one female prison is an issue for me. I know some will write off a certain amount of injured women as collateral damage, but I won't. And such people can never say how many women need to be harmed for the problem to be acnowledged either oddly enough.

Like..there are loads of these instances currently. And I feel, just a proper look at the topic could sort things for both transpeople and female people. Yes, a 'genuine' transwoman (meaning someone with dysphoria, not a random man trying to abuse this) might be in danger in the male estate. The answer to that though is not to use women as human shields, and say that any male who might be at risk (or 'says he is a woman') should become the female peoples problem to sort? The answer, surely, is to have...trans wings, or something like that. So yes, sex, and how it matters is acknowledged. But also, gender is acknowledged, along with general safety of different groups of people. And more people as a result are kept safe. The current way, men have a very easy loophole to transfer to female prisons (and its well known how awful mens prisons are, so in a way you cant blame a lot of them for trying, thats before even getting into the ones wanting to move to abuse the women) which simply results in, female people being massively more at risk, in a place where they absolutely cannot escape.

I also tend to think when the 'but transwomen are at risk in male prisons' somes up, think of the other groups who would be more at risk in a male prison, smaller males, disabled males, gay males, and so on. Should we also open up female prisons to those people as they are more at risk? Or is the answer, lowering the risk for those people in any way we can, instead of putting MORE people at risk instead?

Much thought is needed. The topic is not one that can be easily 'solved'. But current solutions, put women at risk. Not necessarily from transwomen, but from men. And anyone saying men would never abuse such a loophole is kidding themselves tbh. Some men train for years to be priests or teachers, in order to access victims. To claim to have a 'woman gender identity' is nothing to such people. Also, the proportion of sex offenders in prison claiming to be transwomen is hugely disproportional to the amount of sex offenders in the general male population. Which is something that should concern everyone tbh. I don't think transwomen are more likely to be sex offenders, however, something is happening. The logical conclusion is that male sex offenders are saying they are transwomen, to get a transfer. Which is unsurprising while the option exists.

The answer needs to keep transwomen safe, but also not make women unsafe. The current answer, places women in danger. And quite obviously, removes their current sex based rights.

This has probably gone on for longer than intended. This is because..well its a difficult topic with many areas that need looked at. Not simply a 'women, nothing is affecting you really, just shut up and think of the transpeople' like some seem to think it is. Nor is it a 'well tranwomen are male, just shove them in male prison if they are abused, tough' situation. An answer, needs to take both groups into account. The current answer, only considers transwomen.