[joeysteele]

Well anything you join in the main you pay more in than you get out, a football fan with a season ticket pays in loads every year and often gets little in the way of much back, as to team performances.
Not the best comparison but any club or association anyone joins that has a fee, you will be paying in funds to have that privilege.

I really cannot agree with your breakdown Kirk of my points which I knew would be just dismissed anyway by you, as I even actually inferred in my reply post to you.

I really do consider Cameron did do a good deal,I do also believe he could have got frustrated and just walked away,it may have been had he done so, the EU would have asked him back to do the deal then, however he fought to get it and I do applaud him for that.
With respect you maybe see no good as to Cameron's efforts here because he has come down on the staying in side.

Had he walked away and it was clear EU leaders had not been willing to budge, although disappointed,I would have accepted he still tried his best on this.
You and I for 2 people,are not going to agree because all you want to do is likely leave the EU no matter what the PM had likely achieved too and no matter what anyone else says.
I on the opposite side to you rigidly want to stay in because I 100% believe our future in the UK is better assured in that strong grouping of Nations.

Also with respect, in your reply above I see nothing from you that assures me of the UKs future out of the EU being better,what you list is the old arguments of paying in more than we get out.
However in very bad examples, there are many things I am a member of which I have to pay to be in and get no funding back.

Security, an assured economic future,social issues and workers rights etc.I could go on but this post would run into masses of pages,they are things that matter to me and I am one who believes in the EU they are best served even at membership cost.

Also really, you think he didn't need to go to all the Nations of the UK on this,anybody going to negotiate a better deal needs to sound out the people they need to convince of the need for one,I find it astonishing you say he didn't need to or should not have.
Of course it was etiquette and duty to go and sound all the Nations out,I for sure would have.
had he not done so, any deal could have been scuppered anyway by assuming arrogance the EU Nations were all just going to agree with his plans anyway.

I still don't get why you always seem dismayed at the actions of those on the left as to staying in, while at the same time seemingly not surprised at all by any of the actions of those on the right, either voting in or out.
You always seem to have to make a point in a negative way as to those on the left and what they say and intend to do,balance things with right and left then no problem,however it seems you have no problem at all with the right no matter their intentions or actions or comments.

That is why I again raised it as I have with you many times before,Also by the way,I am perfectly calm too thank you.

You still in your post gave,in my opinion, none of the guarantees needed to take a walk out of the EU for good, I saw nothing in your post that indicated apart from being better off for a short while maybe in some way before any new trading deals were negotiated
that would convince me that anyone in politics even has a secure and prepared plan for what we do if we vote to leave.
I know for sure labour hasn't and doubt anyone else has too,according to UKIP once the paying money to the EU is done and we can then control immigration more, we will be in a state of Utopia.
That is a world away from how I see things in the really big picture.

That to me is like people setting out on a journey and having little or no idea where they are supposed to be even going.
In such a scenario, for me, if that's the case and the out people cannot tell us what exactly the guarantees are for the security and future of the UK out of the EU.
Then not risking setting out on such a journey in the first place is what appeals to me,I will vote to stay where I know what the future looks like and where I am at present thank you.
I would also be doing so whether I was on the right or on the left of politics,which I think is irrelevant anyway personally.