[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

OK

The Hollywood / business in general issues are entirely different to the everyday issues. The former are about power, and while it's true that it is still more often men who are in power, that's a separate issue. The fact is that all these people at or near the top, male or female, see is money - if it will affect their pockets to tackle these issues, they won't do it. If it's bad for business to let it continue, they'll nip it in the bud. That goes for ANY issue.

Regardless, it's a world completely removed from ours and there's nothing that anyone outside of that bubble can do, other than vote with our wallets, and $$$ doesn't care what we have between our legs. As has been said already... the Weinstein issue has far more to do with a toxic industry that needs gutted from the inside out than anything else.

Yes, what I am getting from this is that its different with the hollywood thing, its about power in general. So its unfair to say that its a problem males need to sort out...as men are so often powerless too. I would agree that people such as Streep(just as an example) are in a much better position than some guy who is just starting out...for calling out people like Weinstein.

Meanwhile in the real world, everyday casual sexism, the idea that

"men need to sort out men",
"men need to be the ones addressing this"
"men's voices are heard."

... in my opinion ... compounds the problem. It is very similar to the rhetoric of it being "up to the Muslim communities" to tackle terrorism, it's misguided, and it causes more division.

Mens voices are heard, to other men, more often than womens are though. A woman complaining about something is often written off as just a 'moany bitch' and I can't be the only one who would spend ages in office meetings with an idea only to be ignored, then a guy say the EXACT same thing and suddenly its the best idea ever.

Yes, it may be a sexist view, but a view that (in my life anyway) has been my experience. Men listen to other men, more than they listen to women. Take other men much more seriously too.

Infact I am fairly sure that most men would agree with this assessment of (sadly) how things are.

Some people may not even realise that this is often how things are. I cannot, for example, be the only person who spent ages pitching an idea at work, just to be ignored. Then a few mins (or days) later a guy says the exact same idea and all of a sudden its a brilliant idea. Infact it used to be a bit of a running joke in our office that if any of the women had an idea, to let their male friends know it and the males would then take the idea to the (dickhead) boss.

If people as a group see anyone being harassed in any way in public, we should be more willing to do something about it.

Well yes, and most people would. Its not just an issue of when seeing someone assaulted though, its challenging the entire culture that leads to entitled arseholes thinking its fine to behave this way in the first place.

On an individual level - why is it assumed that a 6' tall guy is all that much more equipped to take on a physically aggressive stranger than anyone else? That thinking is, in itself, problematic. The idea that a man is not only needed to, but EXPECTED to, sort out an issue like that more than anyone else. Fact is, a lone male who is NOT an aggressive person himself taking on an aggressor, is quite likely to get himself (and probably other bystanders) hurt. If the aggressor happens to be carrying a knife, mr white knight is probably going to get seriously injured or killed even if he's twice the size. Whereas if 5 people - regardless of sex - take on an aggressor, they will probably slink off with their tail between their legs.

Yes agreed.

So this is where it becomes a paradox. You're trying to tackle the problem of "macho male culture" and "hypermasculinity" by ... promoting "macho male culture" and suggesting that every male should consider himself a "tough guy" and chivalrous protector of poor scared females. You're promoting the idea of male = more powerful, male = better heard, male = protector, male = dominant when all that does is feed right back around to the "bad end" of the spectrum, where men who are already predisposed to disrespecting or lacking empathy for people in general are being culturally drip-fed the idea that women are inferior and need men's help in "scary situations". Men can be gentle, men experience anxiety, men can be scared by scary strangers on trains.

Yes again, good point but the writer of the article (nor myself) are expecting men to put themselves in dangerous situations to play 'white knight' or anything. Its tackling common sexist views and language. That will often occur more often in situations where male people are the majority(or all the viewers). Its more a...men call out your sexist friends on their sexist language and behaviour...than men go out and save a woman from being raped.

Again, it's not that I'm saying people should be left to fend for themselves, I'm saying that if there's a perv on a train carriage then every single person there should have a major problem with it. People should not be eyeballing "the big guy in the corner" and wondering why he isn't stepping in to sort it out.

Yes, I don't think anyone would think that. The only person who has said anything similar on the thread, was parmnion who suggested that I turn to the nearest bloke for defense!

Really the only part I can agree with, is that in groups of male friends the ones who don't think "sexist banter" is acceptable should be more willing to call their friends out on it (or mock them for it - it works better - people hate nothing more than embarrassment) and let them know it's not OK, rather than keeping quiet or even joining in under peer pressure.

Well...that was the whole point of the thread so very glad we agree on that. I would never say men should put themselves in danger on purpose, but tackling the culture from the inside out will make all of the difference. Yes there will still be pervs around, there always will be even if EVERY single nice guy turned round tomorrow and said enough is enough. But the general attitude towards women would change a lot.

Other than that I consider people to be a collective of individuals and no one is more / less responsible for the actions of people who are not them than anyone else is. Again, that's not to say people "should mind their own business" and not step in, it's just to say that expectations should not differ based on physical attributes of any kind.

Agreed.