[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Of course it would! It just comes across that way in most of these threads. It's less engaging with WHAT people's disagreements are, and more questioning WHO are they and what position are they in to dare disagree. That is not conducive to a productive debate, it's overly hostile, off-putting and really exclusionary. Like I said, I completely understand that these are emotive discussions on all-sides and so in many respects it's understandable that they go the way they do. But I think it'd be a lot more helpful if we could all reign it in a little, and try to converse with each other respectfully? Less of the sniping, the sarcasm, the entitlement, etc. And this isn't even just a male thing either, there are quite clearly females on here who for whatever reason don't feel comfortable participating in these debates either - as we discovered last week. This isn't good for any of us - there's an opportunity here for us all to share our experiences and perspectives and have a fully fleshed out, academic discussion and try to understand each other's points of view - but that just isn't possible at the moment.

I totally get what you're saying re. the transphobia and bigotry accusations. Look, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that some of the language and arguments that have been made on here over the last year or so haven't made me uncomfortable because they have. But that's yours and other people's right to hold opinions that might make some feel uneasy, and in the context of a debate I can't legitimately expect people to not be able to express their genuine feelings . The problem I ACTUALLY have is with the language and tone of people's post that surround those opinions. So, it's less about the opinions and more the way they are put across. Like, 'you're a MAN who are YOU to tell ME how to feel' and 'WHAT would YOU know'. I guarantee that if I posted some of my genuine opinions on these topics, the people who dislike me would immediately circle around with some patronising, dismissive, baiting retorts. When you've invested a huge amount of time and passion in a topic, can you understand how annoying that would be? This is totally different to other debates, where I couldn't care less what people think - when you have a personal stake in it and you're effectively being asked 'well what would you know???' it's pretty damn inflammatory, and is likely to end up in me retaliating with more insults - which is not helpful to anyone. Hence why I refrain from partaking.

But I guess this is a matter for all sides, less of the transphobic/bigot accusations, and less of the exclusionary and patronising posts. More civilised, productive, fleshed out discussions...I don't know how we go about ensuring this happens though. Now...onto the rest...I hope I don't regret engaging with this.

You may have a point about men needing to be inconvenienced first before it becomes a national conversation...that's usually the way, after all. But from my perspective at least...I just...don't and won't care (about females coming into male areas, that is)? When I saw these campaigns you've referenced, my initial thought was 'great! they're more than welcome to come in, hopefully this goes the opposite way and proves we DON'T need segregation'. I think I've expressed this before, but I personally favour complete gender/sex desegregation in many areas of social life. I don't see any need for it (cue people stopping reading here and making 'you're a man' comments...), I actually think the obsession we have as a modern society with segregating and categorising people more and more (this applies to sexuality just as much) causes more problems than it solves. I want to break down gender/sex binary, not enrich it. I realise this is potentially going to be quite inflammatory...so let me explain what I'd actually prefer.

I favour unisex toilets/changing rooms because I don't feel comfortable changing in front of ANYONE, regardless of their sex. Communal changing areas are gross and need banning. Replace them all with individual cubicles that anyone can use. On the issue of toilets - I favour much of the same. At my university library, we had some new gender neutral toilets built (people misunderstand this a lot and think they're just for trans people or 'non binary weird people lul') and they were AMAZING. Basically, you went through a door, and behind it there were three separately locked individual toilets that each had a sink and drier in. They were the cleanest in the whole building. You had your own privacy, your own space and it was perfect. More of these need to build nationally.

As for yours and other's concerns, while I totally understand them (as I said before), I do echo what TS said in that a lot of it (at face value at least) seems to be futile. Put it this way, if a predator wants to enter a female-only space, he is going to do so regardless of whatever is on the sign above the door. No law is going to increase or decrease the likelihood of this happening, IMO. What's more is...you're far more likely to be attacked in a domestic setting by someone you know than a stranger in a public place. That's not to minimise the issue or to say that it doesn't happen, I know it does - I've seen the articles, but I don't think any law is going to prevent this from happening, or even make it less likely. Also - by desegregating these areas, you are statistically likely to have MORE people in them, which actually DOES decrease the chances of anything happening. Here's an interesting question for you as a woman - if you were in a public toilet alone, late at night and with no else around, and a man walked in, would you feel more or less scared than if you were in a public toilet, late at night with ten other men and two other women (presuming it were a unisex toilet)? While I'm not a woman and cannot understand your concerns from your perspective, certainly from mine I would much rather be in any public place with more people - men or women. I don't feel comfortable walking down the street with only one or two people about. There's safety in numbers. [I've just realised I've asked this when you already addressed it in that paragraph, but I've typed it now lol]

The prisons/refuges is a more difficult issue I'll concede, and so I won't address it here because this post will be far too long otherwise.

Jack I appreciate the time it took to form that post, I do have one issue with it however, the intimation that again on here the male view has been sidelined or criticised it hasn't...
What has been criticised is the presumption that that is what is happening based on genuine concern, together with an accusatory tone towards what has been said on the topic as disingenuous.

That to me is both offensive and derogatory, it is seriously lacking in respect or the spirit of debate.
In relation to the thread topic and similar discussions on the forum there is an 'assumed' entitlement, as far as I see there has been no 'you can't comment' personally I have invested my whole adulthood to this topic so imagine how galling it is for me to be told my thinking is flawed...(not that you have)

The reason debate isn't possible for me is based on these presumptions, as said most have been perfectly honest in their reaction to these proposals.

You yourself however have said your genuine opinions have not been expressed for fear of challenges from those who don't like you.... How conducive is that to civilised reasoned debate, if you are too afraid to speak your mind on any given topic? and yet suggest that the rest of the forum should.
I highlighted an area where I feel stats and scenarios are unhelpful, to some these would not be useful and a women only space preferred for whatever reason, but lets go with abuse. The fear of attack from a stranger may be irrational but it doesn't make that fear any less real.

I agree that unisex toilets/changing areas are the answer, a perfect solution that's not to say a don't think toilets as is should ever be phased out.