[Scarlett.]

Something to keep in mind in these troublesome times.

Youtube video

[Ammi]

..thank you for posting this Chewy..I always agree with so many of his thoughts on things in general anyway...I think yes, the media especially dehumanise, I think dehumanisation is inevitable to justify and it's a two way thing as well..?...because the Western world has been dehumanised by IS to justify their actions as well, so if we dehumanise, then we start to lose ourselves, our values etc ..who we feel we are...I think it's important to stay focused on the truth that we are all human and that humans can commit such atrocities, to know what the capabilities of humans can be and how they can justify...whatever the answers to any 'fight' against IS, how would we even begin to stand a chance if we think of them as animals or less than human and not even know who/what our enemy is...

[Niamh.]

Oh I'll take a look at this on my lunch break Chewy, I always like what Stephen Fry has to say though

[Niamh.]

On point as always, thanks Chewy, that was a good watch

[Jamie89]

Love him He really does speak a lot of sense.

Hearing him explain, it makes me wonder about when we refer to ISIS as being non-human, which is something I've done because when I think about them I don't consider them to be the same as us. Which of course they're not, in terms of their actions and beliefs, but they are still the same as us biologically which just makes me wonder a lot about WHY some people are capable of such atrocities, and if actually we're all capable, but for various reasons choose (consciously/subconciously?) to restrain that part of us. After all, history shows us that hate/conflict/killing is a part of humanity. But then I feel really guilty about associating them as human or comparing them to 'normal' people because I feel like I SHOULD dehumanize them as a way of expressing how strongly I dislike them and their actions. It's almost like if I humanise them, I'm to an extent giving some sort of justification for their actions. I don't know. It's all really interesting stuff to consider though.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Sleighmie

Love him He really does speak a lot of sense.

Hearing him explain, it makes me wonder about when we refer to ISIS as being non-human, which is something I've done because when I think about them I don't consider them to be the same as us. Which of course they're not, in terms of their actions and beliefs, but they are still the same as us biologically which just makes me wonder a lot about WHY some people are capable of such atrocities, and if actually we're all capable, but for various reasons choose (consciously/subconciously?) to restrain that part of us. After all, history shows us that hate/conflict/killing is a part of humanity. But then I feel really guilty about associating them as human or comparing them to 'normal' people because I feel like I SHOULD dehumanize them as a way of expressing how strongly I dislike them and their actions. It's almost like if I humanise them, I'm to an extent giving some sort of justification for their actions. I don't know. It's all really interesting stuff to consider though.

What I took from the video is what's beginning to happen in peoples treatment/language towards Muslims rather than IS, like Donald Trump wanting them banned from America etc.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by ChristmasNeeve

What I took from the video is what's beginning to happen in peoples treatment/language towards Muslims rather than IS, like Donald Trump wanting them banned from America etc.

Yeah I get that too, it's basically the dehumanization of anyone that he's talking about I think. But on a personal level, I think it made me consider ISIS more because I know in myself that I've dehumanized people like them and other terrorists, whereas I haven't dehumanized muslims or anyone because of their religious beliefs etc, and so it just makes me think about whether or not that's the right thing to do, or if it's kind of contradictory. I would love for Donald Trump to watch this video and have similar thoughts about the way he speaks about muslims/mexicans etc but I doubt he would open his mind to allow that lol!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Sleighmie

Yeah I get that too, it's basically the dehumanization of anyone that he's talking about I think. But on a personal level, I think it made me consider ISIS more because I know in myself that I've dehumanized people like them and other terrorists, whereas I haven't dehumanized muslims or anyone because of their religious beliefs etc, and so it just makes me think about whether or not that's the right thing to do, or if it's kind of contradictory. I would love for Donald Trump to watch this video and have similar thoughts about the way he speaks about muslims/mexicans etc but I doubt he would open his mind to allow that lol!

I don't think it's wrong to call someone who blows up other people or beheads people on film - rats or whatever, I think that's pretty justified

[DemolitionRed]

I could listen to Fry all day long!

Its easy to Dehumanize, especially when we have a whole collective supporting us. We've seen it on here with people like Josie Cunningham.

I don't think many people in the west would disagree with our extreme words about ISIS because they've given us good reason to despise and fear them. The trouble with hate and fear is, it has a tendency to creep into paranoia and when we become paranoid, we will strongly defend our right to that paranoia, especially when we have popular headlines backing us up.

Our distrust of Muslims and our angry examples on all things Islamic is a by-product of our own hatred for ISIS. Humans do have a tendency to look at things in black and white. why make something complex when it can remain simple? This is why many people on here and out there on the British streets don't want to listen to alternative views on British Muslims; their utterances will either fall on deaf ears or they will be accused of showing moral superiority towards the "infidels"

I think Fry's talk on pre-war propaganda against the Jews is a clear message that we have been here before and that its easy to get carried along with such an unhealthy and unreal outlook on a whole section of people living in our society.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by ChristmasNeeve

I don't think it's wrong to call someone who blows up other people or beheads people on film - rats or whatever, I think that's pretty justified

Yeah I don't disagree with that, I've called them worse myself, and I think we're free to call them/treat them however we choose because they've lost any right to be treated with respect. That's my gut feeling towards them. But it's still quite thought provoking to consider that actually, in a general sense, by dehumanizing people like that we're ignoring the fact that these are capabilities that we all have, biologically. I suppose dehumanizing them is like an instinctive thing, because we obviously don't want to have any kind of association with them, and if want to kill them, we have to think of them as less than human, less than us, in order to justify those feelings to ourselves. But this in essence, is the same as their instinctive feelings towards us, which is something I'd never really considered before.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by ChristmasNeeve

I don't think it's wrong to call someone who blows up other people or beheads people on film - rats or whatever, I think that's pretty justified

See the problem for me, is that there's often such a gulf between what is justified / what is tempting... and what is actually helpful. Yes it is justified to call people who are committing atrocities against innocent people "monsters" or "[insert unflattering animal name]", and it's tempting to call them a lot worse... but it isn't helpful... it just gives them that little bit more of a boost in rhetoric to further create more such people. "See? They think you are this, they think you are that, they think they are better than you"... etc.

Dramatic name-calling is an emotional response. Which is obviously completely understandable - when these things happen people get angry, or scared, or usually both and those responses are to be expected in those situations but... really, the logical answer is simple. They are damaged human beings. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Sleighmie

Love him He really does speak a lot of sense.

Hearing him explain, it makes me wonder about when we refer to ISIS as being non-human, which is something I've done because when I think about them I don't consider them to be the same as us. Which of course they're not, in terms of their actions and beliefs, but they are still the same as us biologically which just makes me wonder a lot about WHY some people are capable of such atrocities, and if actually we're all capable, but for various reasons choose (consciously/subconciously?) to restrain that part of us. After all, history shows us that hate/conflict/killing is a part of humanity. But then I feel really guilty about associating them as human or comparing them to 'normal' people because I feel like I SHOULD dehumanize them as a way of expressing how strongly I dislike them and their actions. It's almost like if I humanise them, I'm to an extent giving some sort of justification for their actions. I don't know. It's all really interesting stuff to consider though.

...the thing is that IS are humans and I think that's important to remember because in any conflicts, we must know our enemies and know the capabilities of our enemies and also to know and never forget what humans are capable of..they're capable of the 'inhumane' and they may do monstrous things but they're not monsters...and some of IS are 'child soldiers' who are fed with hate almost from birth, we have to understand these things by never forgetting they're human ..otherwise, we're just feeding them more hate in dehumanising them and also giving more justification in their minds for hating us...they have the ability to dehumanise us to do the things they do but if we feel the same, if we think the same way, if we allow them to make us dehumanise humans then isn't it one step closer to their thought processes...I mean still many, many miles away, but you know what I mean....

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

See the problem for me, is that there's often such a gulf between what is justified / what is tempting... and what is actually helpful. Yes it is justified to call people who are committing atrocities against innocent people "monsters" or "[insert unflattering animal name]", and it's tempting to call them a lot worse... but it isn't helpful... it just gives them that little bit more of a boost in rhetoric to further create more such people. "See? They think you are this, they think you are that, they think they are better than you"... etc.

Dramatic name-calling is an emotional response. Which is obviously completely understandable - when these things happen people get angry, or scared, or usually both and those responses are to be expected in those situations but... really, the logical answer is simple. They are damaged human beings. Nothing more, nothing less.

...damn, you type quicker than me, you inhuman creature...that's just NOT NORMAL....but yeah, basically my thoughts that I was typing at the same time...

[arista]

Yes The Nazi
Guard at the end.

Typical of that time

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

you inhuman creature...

Are you flirting with me again Ammi?

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

Are you flirting with me again Ammi?

.....sorry I've just seen this...yeah, I promised Kirk that I wouldn't neglect you while he was away...

[Kizzy]

Isis aside can we admit that we are guilty of such actions too? As I mentioned in a thread months ago the use of terms such as 'cockroach' and 'marauders' were being used to plant the seeds of distrust and fear over refugees.
In the same vein we have 'benefits scroungers', almost all poverty porn is in my opinion specifically driven to create a gulf using cleverly divisive language.