[jaxie]

I'm what you might call a floating voter. I often struggle to find a party I believe in and respect enough to vote for. I used to go Lib Dem as the lesser evil but after the betrayal of the students in the last parlement I will never vote for them again as I can be very unforgiving.

My roots are Labour, my dad would spin in his grave if I ever voted Tory, and I should be a natural socialist with how I view the world and the people in it. Yet the Labour party turns me off as much as the Tories do. I can't warm to any of the leaders. Brown and his back door leadership deal and facial habit that reminded me of a toad. The humiliation of the lady who asked about immigration and was branded a bigot. Ed with his attempts to look caring and concerned just came across almost as patronising as a Tory and a bit weird. Corbin feels like a step backwards to the 70s little grey men and someone needs to tell him the point of a nuclear deterrent is that you don't tell everyone you'd never push the button. I can never warm to this man he is not a leader. I admired a speech Hilary Ben gave on action over Syria. Someone like him could engage voters more I think. Though I don't agree with him on Europe.

I would love a political home, a party I can believe in and I feel it should be labour and yet they cannot engage me as a potential voter. I often feel that I am one of those lost to all parties, not particularly rich not particularly poor, dont live on benefits, pay my taxes I'm the middle no one seems to speak up for or represents, gets hit with every new tax, crippled by winter fuel bills when prices are high, of no particular interest politically to any of them. Yet I might argue that those of us in the middle, paying our way may often be poorer and have harder times than those who live on benefits. Often it's a struggle to pay our way. Who represents us?

I am a passionate vote leave EU and I feel that Labour should be too and yet the party line continues to waffle in favour of an institution that Labour naturally should stand against. The EU decimated fishing communities and shouldn't those people and their needs be at the heart and soul of Labour? Where was their voice when this happened? Labour should be the natural champions against the undemocratic EU taking power from the people but they are not. I never really understood that until a recent article which said that Jacques Delores made a speech to the TUC in 1988 and convinced them that Brussels lack of democracy could be used to implement left wing ideas without voters consent. This makes me feel incredibly sold out.

Thoughts anyone?

[user104658]

I don't think there is a political party that really represents "normal", middle class working people to be honest... There's a very good reason that there's a large amount of voter apathy in middle class people under 40. Those older than that tend to be habitual voters, they have been voting for 20+ years so will keep voting for the same parties mostly, more out of tradition than anything else. As you say, the younger generations are struggling to find ANY party that represents them or understands the hurdles of trying to build a nest / a life as a normal middle-income person today.

Originally Posted by jaxie

Yet I might argue that those of us in the middle, paying our way may often be poorer and have harder times than those who live on benefits.

I have to disagree with this though, as someone who dipped my toes into "being (mostly) on benefits" very briefly before getting back out of it.

Grew up in a comfortable middle-class home, had a pretty cushy ride through Uni - I'm Scottish so no fees, my parents separated when I was 18 and my mum was on disability so I got a full bursary based on her income... But my dad was making plenty of money and paid my full accommodation costs for 3 years. Probably had it too easy, haha.

Then my girlfriend got pregnant, I didn't graduate, we were living on basically full benefits, with a baby, for over a year and a half. It's horrendous. Truly the worst time of my life, so utterly miserable and depressing. Clothes full of holes, shoes full of holes, because we spent any money we did have making a use our daughter didn't go without. Walking a mile in the rain with soaking wet feet to get to the shop and buy dinner with a fistful of 5p coins that we had scraped together out of the change jar (mortifying).

The worst part through, was getting a bill landing on the mat once, somewhere wanting £53, and being an anxious wreck for days because I had no idea how we would pay it and still eat. Fifty three measly ****ing quid .

ANYway... fast forward 5 years and we're very much back in the middle. We drive, we don't worry about turning on the heating, we eat out a lot, we have a decent level of disposable income, my wife is going back to University in September... A bill for £50 is annoying but I could just phone up and pay it without a second thought, I wouldn't understand how it could make someone utterly depressed - - IF I hadn't lived it.

Sorry, that was a bit longer than I intended, but I just had to throw it out there as someone "in the middle" who has thoroughly experienced the alternative. I find it difficult to accept when people start saying that it seems like those on benefits "have it better". There are a few bad eggs who play the system, but for 99% of people who live that life it is an unending crapfest. We're lucky in that we were two intelligent people in our early 20's who had the ability, and prospects (and time) to ensure that it was only ever going to be a temporary situation... When I think about people stuck in that life it sends a chill down my spine.

[DemolitionRed]

Great post Jaxie and I agree with a lot, though not all of what you say.

Thanks for that response TS, its nice to hear from someone who's lived at both ends of the spectrum.

Like you Jaxie, I'm an independent thinker. I was also pro LD up and until the coalition. I was never a NL supporter because they were just another bunch of neoliberals towing the party line. There are some things I don't like about Corbyn but their are many things I don't like about Cameron and so my leaning is more left than right. The Labour party are coming over as weak because they spend too much time concentrating on small politics and we don't get to see the bigger picture of what this Labour party is about. That doesn't mean I'm disillusioned enough to desert them but it does mean my interests are hovering elsewhere (mainly the Green party).

If we could take all the good bits from every party, we would have the recipe for one hell of a cake. Unfortunately that's not going to happen and so for now, I remain open minded about what both Labour and the Greens can bring forth.

[Kizzy]

No, no they aren't ... I worry sometimes what do people want?

The truth, honest heartfelt principled political opinion ... or not.
What do we have at the moment, legislation which can be rushed through on a whim without impact assessing or due consultation, changes to public sector contracts imposed, the media imploring voters to vote a certain way (torygraph), arms sales, lies, lies and damned lies.
How out of touch is gentrification?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think there is a political party that really represents "normal", middle class working people to be honest... There's a very good reason that there's a large amount of voter apathy in middle class people under 40. Those older than that tend to be habitual voters, they have been voting for 20+ years so will keep voting for the same parties mostly, more out of tradition than anything else. As you say, the younger generations are struggling to find ANY party that represents them or understands the hurdles of trying to build a nest / a life as a normal middle-income person today.



I have to disagree with this though, as someone who dipped my toes into "being (mostly) on benefits" very briefly before getting back out of it.

Grew up in a comfortable middle-class home, had a pretty cushy ride through Uni - I'm Scottish so no fees, my parents separated when I was 18 and my mum was on disability so I got a full bursary based on her income... But my dad was making plenty of money and paid my full accommodation costs for 3 years. Probably had it too easy, haha.

Then my girlfriend got pregnant, I didn't graduate, we were living on basically full benefits, with a baby, for over a year and a half. It's horrendous. Truly the worst time of my life, so utterly miserable and depressing. Clothes full of holes, shoes full of holes, because we spent any money we did have making a use our daughter didn't go without. Walking a mile in the rain with soaking wet feet to get to the shop and buy dinner with a fistful of 5p coins that we had scraped together out of the change jar (mortifying).

The worst part through, was getting a bill landing on the mat once, somewhere wanting £53, and being an anxious wreck for days because I had no idea how we would pay it and still eat. Fifty three measly ****ing quid .

ANYway... fast forward 5 years and we're very much back in the middle. We drive, we don't worry about turning on the heating, we eat out a lot, we have a decent level of disposable income, my wife is going back to University in September... A bill for £50 is annoying but I could just phone up and pay it without a second thought, I wouldn't understand how it could make someone utterly depressed - - IF I hadn't lived it.

Sorry, that was a bit longer than I intended, but I just had to throw it out there as someone "in the middle" who has thoroughly experienced the alternative. I find it difficult to accept when people start saying that it seems like those on benefits "have it better". There are a few bad eggs who play the system, but for 99% of people who live that life it is an unending crapfest. We're lucky in that we were two intelligent people in our early 20's who had the ability, and prospects (and time) to ensure that it was only ever going to be a temporary situation... When I think about people stuck in that life it sends a chill down my spine.

Good post, perhaps I should have said 'feel as badly off as people on benefits sometimes'. There have certainly been times it's felt that way with nothing left after paying all the bills, no holidays, no money for meals out etc. During the recession I could barely cover the cost of my energy bills. I still can't believe some of them and how they've come down, we haven't used more or less energy. Obviously this isn't always the case, just that there have been times when it's been a struggle to get by and you feel unrepresented and completely detached from the electorate that politicians speak about.

Though to be fair I have no experience of living on benefits though my mother does and seems to be fairly comfortable and have what she needs and even manages to save.

I've noticed some people have voted no in the poll without saying anything, I'd like to know why they feel that their party is completely in touch.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Great post Jaxie and I agree with a lot, though not all of what you say.

Thanks for that response TS, its nice to hear from someone who's lived at both ends of the spectrum.

Like you Jaxie, I'm an independent thinker. I was also pro LD up and until the coalition. I was never a NL supporter because they were just another bunch of neoliberals towing the party line. There are some things I don't like about Corbyn but their are many things I don't like about Cameron and so my leaning is more left than right. The Labour party are coming over as weak because they spend too much time concentrating on small politics and we don't get to see the bigger picture of what this Labour party is about. That doesn't mean I'm disillusioned enough to desert them but it does mean my interests are hovering elsewhere (mainly the Green party).

If we could take all the good bits from every party, we would have the recipe for one hell of a cake. Unfortunately that's not going to happen and so for now, I remain open minded about what both Labour and the Greens can bring forth.

If we all agreed with everything all of the time it would be a dull world!

I might have gone Green but they sold out over the EU and stopped being pro leave, I believe because they were given some funding though I can't recall the details it was mentioned on the This Week show after Question Time when the leader was on. This completely turned me off them.

Maybe taking all the good bits from each party means we should start our own and offer something for people like us!

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I'm what you might call a floating voter. I often struggle to find a party I believe in and respect enough to vote for. I used to go Lib Dem as the lesser evil but after the betrayal of the students in the last parlement I will never vote for them again as I can be very unforgiving.

My roots are Labour, my dad would spin in his grave if I ever voted Tory, and I should be a natural socialist with how I view the world and the people in it. Yet the Labour party turns me off as much as the Tories do. I can't warm to any of the leaders. Brown and his back door leadership deal and facial habit that reminded me of a toad. The humiliation of the lady who asked about immigration and was branded a bigot. Ed with his attempts to look caring and concerned just came across almost as patronising as a Tory and a bit weird. Corbin feels like a step backwards to the 70s little grey men and someone needs to tell him the point of a nuclear deterrent is that you don't tell everyone you'd never push the button. I can never warm to this man he is not a leader. I admired a speech Hilary Ben gave on action over Syria. Someone like him could engage voters more I think. Though I don't agree with him on Europe.

I would love a political home, a party I can believe in and I feel it should be labour and yet they cannot engage me as a potential voter. I often feel that I am one of those lost to all parties, not particularly rich not particularly poor, dont live on benefits, pay my taxes I'm the middle no one seems to speak up for or represents, gets hit with every new tax, crippled by winter fuel bills when prices are high, of no particular interest politically to any of them. Yet I might argue that those of us in the middle, paying our way may often be poorer and have harder times than those who live on benefits. Often it's a struggle to pay our way. Who represents us?

I am a passionate vote leave EU and I feel that Labour should be too and yet the party line continues to waffle in favour of an institution that Labour naturally should stand against. The EU decimated fishing communities and shouldn't those people and their needs be at the heart and soul of Labour? Where was their voice when this happened? Labour should be the natural champions against the undemocratic EU taking power from the people but they are not. I never really understood that until a recent article which said that Jacques Delores made a speech to the TUC in 1988 and convinced them that Brussels lack of democracy could be used to implement left wing ideas without voters consent. This makes me feel incredibly sold out.

Thoughts anyone?

You just described my position better than i could.I agree with all you say.I also have no political home.I want to vote Labour but could not with the leaders they've had(specially Corbyn).Labour make me sad because i want to like them.I've never voted Tory in my life and never will and the Lib Dems are a wishy washy party who don't know what they stand for.I end up voting UKIP every time but they will never get in power and will be pretty unnecessary after the referendum.Tbh i live in an unshakeable Labour area anyway so my vote is surplus to requirements.
I'm told i should vote because i'm excercising my democratic right so i do every time but i really struggle with it because i don't align with any of them.
If Hilary Ben became Labour leader then i could almost be persuaded depending on how sensible he was on immigration.

[Northern Monkey]

On the topic of Labour losing touch with it's voters The Sunday Politics was just saying that 40% of Labour voters are Euro skeptic and those are the people who will be going to Ukip.Also that Ukip are already the second party in the north now.Labour are not reflecting alot of their voters opinions anymore.

[the truth]

yes. they dont seem to understand the basic principles of the monetary system.

[Johnnyuk123]

Yes Labour are completely out of touch with their dwindling fan base. You have some old goat in charge who has spent his entire political career longing to get out of the EU now doing a full U turn on the issue, and now claiming that we must remain in the EU, in order to save his own job. Corbyn is a spineless none entity but i must thank Jeremy for making certain that the Conservative Party will continue to run this country for the next 20yrs plus.
Thank you Jeremy.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

Yes Labour are completely out of touch with their dwindling fan base. You have some old goat in charge who has spent his entire political career longing to get out of the EU now doing a full U turn on the issue, and now claiming that we must remain in the EU, in order to save his own job. Corbyn is a spineless none entity but i must thank Jeremy for making certain that the Conservative Party will continue to run this country for the next 20yrs plus.
Thank you Jeremy.

Why would you want the Conservatives to carry on running this country?. That's a serious question btw

[the truth]

labour are finished as a political force they simply dont realise it...even the anti immigrant rhetoric is entirely their fault. why? 1) they started illegal wars killing 1 million plus irais...2) this in turn engendered hate and more terrorism....3) this in turn created the mass immigrant invasion but whilst creating all this carnage with their lies, they at the same time banned free speech and called everyone who dared discuss it a racist. they are the racists. they are finished.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Why would you want the Conservatives to carry on running this country?. That's a serious question btw

unemployment has halved growth has risen, wages have risen, public sector debt has fallen...we hear nothing of filth and mrsa in hospitals as theyve strengthened the reporting procedures and obudsmen, so staff who wish to complain about abuse can do so privately without fear of reprisal or bullying.

[empire]

yes they have been as far back as the early 90s, they have this anti-rhetoric, if you are, white, male, and english, and they have been sugarcoating this with words like, diversity and multiculturalism, in the north of england,and in parts of london and even liverpool, nothing has changed in the last 13 years they ran the country, they have made the mistake of not creating jobs in areas that have high unemployment, and bribed the voters there with bigger welfare money, like throwing free sweets to children, it turned people there into self-entitlement thinkers, rather than demanding jobs, its like what had happened to kids company, and when gorden brown called that woman a bigot, they have been saying this to others, even today, and there saying, why are we not winning,

[the truth]

theyve been a disaaster. thats not to see the tories are any good. labour are sheep in wolves clothes, the tories are just wolves. but the tories simply had to come in yet again to clean up labours disaster. yet labour never said sorry and never learned a thing. arrogant complacent dishonest treasonous and dangerous. they created this frustration and brexit campaigvn by banning free speech in the first place

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

theyve been a disaaster. thats not to see the tories are any good. labour are sheep in wolves clothes, the tories are just wolves. but the tories simply had to come in yet again to clean up labours disaster. yet labour never said sorry and never learned a thing. arrogant complacent dishonest treasonous and dangerous. they created this frustration and brexit campaigvn by banning free speech in the first place

Old style NL were just as corrupt as the Tories. They continued with the neoliberal trend and were just another bunch of Thatcherites. I agree with you about NL but Corbyn isn't NL, he's something very different.

Low unemployment is 'smokes and mirrors'. Employment figures have been masked behind zero hour contracts and benefit funded work schemes and the thousands of jobseekers who have been forced into low income jobs that affords them nothing other than poverty. Why is it, that when we see figures of employment going down, people using food banks going up?

Pay rises are great when there is ultra low inflation but ultra low inflation stagnates economic growth and when there’s low economic growth, employers have no choice than to become less generous with hours.

Both the Tories and NL have little interest in the citizens of this country, especially those sitting on the bread line. Corbyn has massive interest in this problem, but is it enough...I don't think it is.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Old style NL were just as corrupt as the Tories. They continued with the neoliberal trend and were just another bunch of Thatcherites. I agree with you about NL but Corbyn isn't NL, he's something very different.

Low unemployment is 'smokes and mirrors'. Employment figures have been masked behind zero hour contracts and benefit funded work schemes and the thousands of jobseekers who have been forced into low income jobs that affords them nothing other than poverty. Why is it, that when we see figures of employment going down, people using food banks going up?

Pay rises are great when there is ultra low inflation but ultra low inflation stagnates economic growth and when there’s low economic growth, employers have no choice than to become less generous with hours.

Both the Tories and NL have little interest in the citizens of this country, especially those sitting on the bread line. Corbyn has massive interest in this problem, but is it enough...I don't think it is.

Fantastic summary, I really wish it was enough DR. We are so conditioned in this country now I can't see it changing either
I used to have faith, faith in people to be good moral and decent at the core seems that means something entirely different now.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Old style NL were just as corrupt as the Tories. They continued with the neoliberal trend and were just another bunch of Thatcherites. I agree with you about NL but Corbyn isn't NL, he's something very different.

Low unemployment is 'smokes and mirrors'. Employment figures have been masked behind zero hour contracts and benefit funded work schemes and the thousands of jobseekers who have been forced into low income jobs that affords them nothing other than poverty. Why is it, that when we see figures of employment going down, people using food banks going up?

Pay rises are great when there is ultra low inflation but ultra low inflation stagnates economic growth and when there’s low economic growth, employers have no choice than to become less generous with hours.

Both the Tories and NL have little interest in the citizens of this country, especially those sitting on the bread line. Corbyn has massive interest in this problem, but is it enough...I don't think it is.

corbyn has tunnel vision, he sees human rights, he doesnt see the economy. the economy affects our lives even more.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

corbyn has tunnel vision, he sees human rights, he doesn't see the economy. the economy affects our lives even more.

He doesn't see it... Why?
That's like saying the tories don't see poverty they only see the big six, hang on that's a bad analogy because it's true. :/

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

He doesn't see it... Why?
That's like saying the tories don't see poverty they only see the big six, hang on that's a bad analogy because it's true. :/

he just doesnt say or do anything that will give sme's any hope....he doesnt say much about labours total failure in their 13 years on the economy and virtually everything else. the man needs a coallition of sme's and their staff and public sector but all hes doing is appealing to students. no doubt he likes to have young students worshipping him

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

he just doesnt say or do anything that will give sme's any hope....he doesnt say much about labours total failure in their 13 years on the economy and virtually everything else. the man needs a coallition of sme's and their staff and public sector but all hes doing is appealing to students. no doubt he likes to have young students worshipping him

Have you included the worldwide resession in that calculation?

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Fantastic summary, I really wish it was enough DR. We are so conditioned in this country now I can't see it changing either
I used to have faith, faith in people to be good moral and decent at the core seems that means something entirely different now.

Conditioned is a good word. We are being conditioned to suspect all Muslims, resent immigrants especially if we are working class, ignore the poor, especially if we are working class, look down on benefit claimants, especially if we are working class.

We are being conditioned into believing we can only benefit from a police state because we are all in some sort of imminent danger and generally to have an attitude of, "I'm alright Jack so fcuk everyone else."

[DemolitionRed]

Actually Kizzy, we are becoming Americanized.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

he just doesnt say or do anything that will give sme's any hope....he doesnt say much about labours total failure in their 13 years on the economy and virtually everything else. the man needs a coallition of sme's and their staff and public sector but all hes doing is appealing to students. no doubt he likes to have young students worshipping him

There's good reason why he says little about old style NL... he was never part of it. They were not a part of his belief system.

When Corbyn stood for election, he didn’t think he stood a cat in hells chance of becoming the next leader of the Labour party. The only reason he stood up against other frontline politicians, including Labour Right, is because he wanted to stop or at least put a spanner in the way of this ludicrous neoliberal stampede. Since he got in he’s been faced with some appalling Labour Right opponents who believe in their disillusioned utopia that they have more electability than him.

Corbyn took up his position knowing that the press, the Conservatives and many of his own party were going to try and rip him apart. He stepped up without any formal study in the elocution of how to give a fluent and captive speech to the masses and he laughed at any suggestion of a clean shave and the right and proper dress code.

Corbyn may not be a very good talker but he’s a straight talker who, at least to begin with, paid little attention to squabbling going on within his own office. He mostly got rid of the petulant Blairites and anti Corbyn antagonists, but I do now sense that someone or something has got to him.

I don’t know what’s happened but it feels as though Corbyn (of whom I am still a great follower) has forgotten why so many people voted for him. Corbyn’s strengths lay with civil liberties, the working man and social justice. He’s not an economist he’s a reformist.

I very much relate to the way Corbyn thinks, he’s got a huge following, not of sandle loving tree huggers but intelligent and politically interested individuals.

I have to say though, I feel myself getting frustrated with his lack of demand more and more. Perhaps being at the top has got to him.

[the truth]

Sorry it's not good enough. Yes failed in the eu and said virtually nothing about the economy. Is out mcdonell in charge