[Magic]

Originally posted by Sticks
The premise of this series was a what if the Germans won the battle of Britain

The first programme was the tactics the Germans would use to subjugate Britain and how it would mean the defeat of Russia as well, with a German A bomb to take on America.

The second was how the resistance would operate for a few weeks before the Germans finally won.

It was quite interesting and frightening. My grandmother once said she would put her's and my mother's head in the oven and gas themselves if the Germans landed, so I would never have been around.

If Hitler had won the war, we would probably consider him a hero, and if we had ever heard of the final solution, would we have considered it was the best thing he ever did.

Is the definition of right, that which you can enforce with deadly force ?

This alternative history is quite thought provoking.

it is worthy of note that people today consider that Sir Winston Churchill was a war criminal of the order of Slobbadan Milosovich or much worse.

A way old post in TV chat that Sticks made, and it made me think, what woukd of happend if Hitler did win?

[Ramsay]

We'd be speaking german

[Loukas]

I dont want to think about it.

He didn't win, so yeah..

[Magic]

I would hate to think.
I wonder if we would still be the same now, as really the whole world would differ.

[No.1RachelFan!]

I think the conflict would continue till about 1980, Britain and USA would end up allying with Germany against Russia in the Cold War. We might be all living in a nuclear winter now. Who knows?? That's a very simplistic view though, actually. I wonder how long Hitler would have been able to keep control of Europe, the world even... we saw how hard he found it conquering Britain and Russia, even if he had caught them, I doubt he would have maintained them for long.

[ange7]

I think fascist red necks would reign in Britain. The papers would be full of racist hate. Your democratic rights and personal freedoms would be so cut to pieces under the guise of what's "good for the country" and for "security". Finally the UK would turn into a paranoid Big Brother state where there are cameras on every street corner keeping all you lemmings in check.
So basically it would be just like it is now except the trains would run on time.

[Red Moon]

I not so sure what would have happened. At the time of the Battle of Britain the British Army was a mess, even without air superiority he could have walked into Britain taken over the southern airfields with the army and taken control of the air. And in any case at the point the Germans gave up on attacking British Airfields in the Battle Britain they were actually winning and didn't even know it. A few weeks more of bombing our air bases and we were finished. Luck was on our side.....

But assuming we had fallen.... well the German army and it allies wouldn't have had there forces split between two fronts and the attack on Russia would have seen the Russian capital fall in 1942. You have to remember the Russian army was disorganized and out of date and it's air force lacked any modern aircraft types. It was only the slowing down of the German advance by being over stretched that stopped them.

Now say that most europe has fallen by 1944/45, would the Germans have stopped there?

Well it seems not. The German Rocket industry had plans to build the A9 and A10 missiles as a successor to the V2. Both of these missiles were true Inter-Continental Ballistic Missiles capable of reaching America, and work started on these in 1940 even before the USA joined the war in 1941. Other projects that shows the ambition of Germany is the Junkers 390, Messsermischimitte 264B and the Focke-Wulf Ta400, although these designs where started after the USA joined the war, they were all bombers capable of reaching the USA. In fact the a Junkers 390 approached within 12 miles of New York before turning back for home in a test flight in 1944.

The Germans technical advancement in Rocketry was amazing and without the help of the German scientists that created the V2 the USA would never have put man on the moon. Couple with this the British excellence in aircraft engine design, and the coupling together of the knowledge of jet engine design, there has to be a real possibility that the USA could fallen too.

In the end I think it would have come down to who could create the H bomb first, the USA or German Europe, but one things for sure if the German Europe had the Bomb first they would have had the means to deliver it much more effectively than the USA.

It is easy to forget, that by the time that the USA entered the war they were miles behind Europe in military aviation, and aircraft like the famous Mustang were designed to British specifications with a British engine. The USA reused a lot of British technology during the war and developed it further, but if Britain had fallen they wouldn't have had that technology in the first place.

In the end, we might have a nuclear winter, like No.1RachelFan! said, but I'm not sure it would be Europe's problem.

[ange7]

yeah but the question was "what would have happened if Hitler won the war" .... oops my bad...you actually answered that in the first sentence.

ps "Luck was on our side" ... umm you mean the allies including the US and the USSR were on your side. Russians alone lost 20 million in that war and did the bulk of the hard yards. US troops turned the tide, .... pretty sure British "luck" had nothing to do with it.
"Luck was on our side" is pretty much a slap in the face of all who died winning that war.
... now where's my anorak....

[Red Moon]

Originally posted by ange7

yeah but the question was "what would have happened if Hitler won the war" .... oops my bad...you actually answered that in the first sentence.

ps "Luck was on our side" ... umm you mean the allies including the US and the USSR where on your side. Russians alone lost 20 million in that war and did the bulk of the hard yards. US troops turned the tide .... pretty sure Britsh "luck" had nothing to do with it.

Well the first sentence was "I not so sure what would have happened.", but that doesn't stop me having a guess given given what I know about the history of aviation. Who knows for sure what would have happened?

Wait a sec, I have an answer, if Hittler hadn't have won the war he wouldn't have killed himself. Problem solved, question answered.

Oh well now we know the answer, or another one of the possible answers, lets move on...

Yes, luck had a lot to do with it, back in 1940 both the USA and Russia were neutral, they weren't our allies. We would have fallen during the winter of 1940 if operation Sea loin had be put into place. The USA would have never entered the war, in fact they didn't enter the war until 1941, after sitting on fence for ages. As for the USSR they had a pact with the Germans until 1942, it wasn't until that pact ran out they entered the war when the Germans invaded.

So the fact that in the end the USA and the USSR were our allies during the war doesn't enter into this. That happened in history years after we were defeated.

So luck has a lot to do with it, as the Germans stopped there attacks just before we were defeated in the air, the Germans decided to bomb our cities rather than our neatly defeated airfields, allowing us time to regroup.

[MrGaryy]

Originally posted by DoubleTrouble
I dont want to think about it.

He didn't win, so yeah..

Wow, I always enjoy your deep insights.

[ange7]

dude...point 1
you singularly missed the point of the whole post in your rush to impress us with ww2 tactical scenarios you have running through your head. The question is about what would TODAY be like if hitler won ... would we be speaking German, would they have taken over the world, would BB9 have gas chambers... that kind of stuff.

point 2
How does the fact that the US and the USSR didn't enter the war till later prove your point that "luck" had something to do with it. It doesn't ... you had Allies ... Aussies, Canadians Kiwis Indians half of Europe etc etc. My point is that the assertion that "Luck was on our side" belittles the many millions of lives lost halting the spread of fascism. ...luck? dude... whatever

[Scarlett.]

You think us, the nation, the people, the population would have conformed?

You cant kill that which you wish to control

[ange7]

Originally posted by Chewy
You think us, the nation, the people, the population would have conformed?

You cant kill that which you wish to control

are you the actual chewy from star wars? hehe because your last post sounded like you were testing out your jedi mind ****** skills. Dude ... what do you mean? and are you speaking to me?

[Scotboy88]

I'm Probably dead as i didn't fit his perfect dream as I'm deaf.

[Novo]

Originally posted by Chewy
You think us, the nation, the people, the population would have conformed?

You cant kill that which you wish to control

tbh I don't think everyone would have gone against him
obviously black people - jews - gays and disabled people would have made a stand.

and even if everyone did go against him

we would have had no chance

no army left for a start

it would be like a peasants revolt

we would have been crushed like worms

thankfully it never ended up like that

[Sticks]

Interestingly in 1974 they somehow using table top war games they ran the battle plans for operation Sea Lion to see what the result would have been.

It did not give the Germans the total victory they thought they would get.



link

In wargames conducted at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst in 1974, which assumed the Luftwaffe had not yet won air supremacy, the Germans were able to establish a beachhead in England by using a minefield screen in the English Channel to protect the initial assault. However, the German ground forces were delayed at the "Stop Lines" (e.g., the GHQ Line), a layered series of defensive positions that had been built, each a combination of British Home Guard troops and physical barriers. At the same time, the regular troops of the British Army were forming up. After only a few days, the Royal Navy was able to reach the Channel from Scapa Flow, cutting off supplies and blocking further reinforcement. Isolated and facing regular troops with armour and artillery, the invasion force was made to surrender.

As for the atomic bomb, Hitler was suspicious of Physics, as it was considered Jewish, and Germany never went down that route.

As we contemplate these what ifs, please remember the 2 minute silence at 11:00 if possible.

[ange7]

Originally posted by Sticks
As we contemplate these what ifs, please remember the 2 minute silence at 11:00 if possible.

yeah all accept Red Moon who will apparently be thanking Britain's good luck instead of those that sacrificed.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by ange7
yeah all accept Red Moon who will apparently be thanking Britain's good luck instead of those that sacrificed.

That is a bit unfair, even with the bravery and sacrifice of those in our armed forces, sometimes there was an element of luck, if you think back to Operation Market Garden, somethings went awry and somethings did not happen as expected. There was one bridge that was detonated, but instead of collapsing, it held, and was of great use to the allied forces.

Going back even further, it was said that a change in the weather helped defeat the Spanish Armada.

Lucky breaks do happen, the trick is to exploit them as soon as they happen, which is what our forces did all those years ago.

[Scarlett.]

Originally posted by andy-dale-win

tbh I don't think everyone would have gone against him
obviously black people - jews - gays and disabled people would have made a stand.

and even if everyone did go against him

we would have had no chance

no army left for a start

it would be like a peasants revolt

we would have been crushed like worms

thankfully it never ended up like that

Im pretty sure all of Britain would have revolted, Hitler was hated, and what happens if all the peasents in the village revolt

[Novo]

Originally posted by Chewy

Im pretty sure all of Britain would have revolted, Hitler was hated, and what happens if all the peasents in the village revolt

thinking about it

i guess your right

if al Queda was to take over our country i guess they woudnt really stand a chance against 60 million people

[ange7]

Originally posted by Sticks

That is a bit unfair, even with the bravery and sacrifice of those in our armed forces, sometimes there was an element of luck, if you think back to Operation Market Garden, somethings went awry and somethings did not happen as expected. There was one bridge that was detonated, but instead of collapsing, it held, and was of great use to the allied forces.

Going back even further, it was said that a change in the weather helped defeat the Spanish Armada.

Lucky breaks do happen, the trick is to exploit them as soon as they happen, which is what our forces did all those years ago.

yeah there's chance and luck to found everywhere... but it wasn't why Britain held it's head above water in the first 2 years of WW2 before the US and the USSR entered. That's all I'm saying... if I risked my life saving someone from a burning house and they thanked their good luck instead of me I'd be well p*ssed. In Australia we call ex serviceman "diggers".. they're venerated where ever they go ... especially today and on Anzac day. Thousands died fighting in Europe. Given the day it is, for red to say Britain nearly collapsed if it wasn't for some good luck ...is tactless in the extreme.

[NettoSuperstar!]

We'd all be living under a facist dictatorship having our heads filled with deluded racist paranoia!

[NettoSuperstar!]

mind you not that the politics of fear has gone away, evidently!

[Locke.]

Originally posted by Gazbo

Wow, I always enjoy your deep insights.

[Sunny_01]

Just thinking about the lives we would be living had all those men, women and children not fought to keep our futures safe. We would all be living in fear, we would not be allowed independent thought, in fact many of us would not exist because of who we were related to.

I dont think Red was in any way making light of those that gave up their lives.