[JoshBB]

We haven't had it properly for a long time in Britain.. and socialism founded the NHS, council housing, welfare state.. I want to know what else can be achieved

[empire]

socialism has never worked, in greece,britain,USSR, the eu tried it, and it has failed to get people out of poverty, socialist parties in europe don't care for the people of their countries, all they care for is the globalisation of the world to bring cheap workers from around the world, to fill up jobs in there countries, socialism, marxism, capitalism, are the most cruel things that where brought too this world, and belong to the past, the rich figured out socialism, in how they could make profit out of it, with globalisation, the working man ditched socialism along time ago, champagne socialism is for the rich kids now,

[the truth]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

We haven't had it properly for a long time in Britain.. and socialism founded the NHS, council housing, welfare state.. I want to know what else can be achieved

It wasn't socialism that gave us those things......the liberals fought to get votes for working class men and women, the liberals taxed the rich and the king for the first time, the liberals under the genius of Lloyd George invented the welfare state and national insurance contributions....yes neu bevan a true socialist was the man who really laid downt he foundation for the nhs and he also oversaw 1 million council houses under clem atlee....
the true heart land of socialism is industrial wales Scotland and the north. this is where the industrial revolution happened, the shipyards, the mines, the slate quarries. the sense of community and fair play or whats known here as chwarae teg......Cardiff bay or tiger bay as it was known is the perfect example of how one can bringing in a vast amount of immigration successfully and merge with the local people into a melting pot of multi culturalism....the place is absolutely magical..trust me try a day to to the world cup in Cardiff and youll understand what I mean...

Ive lived in wales 20 years now and its simply a better place to live. Its no coincidence the greatest british polticians of the last century were both welsh and the other keir hardie who created the labour was basically schooled in wales.Its the oldest part of the Uk , the least understood and the most unappreciated

[Kizzy]

Yes, yes it is.

[the truth]

socialism can work if its balanced. new labour were dishonest and corrupt so that will always fail. if it goes back to core values, common sense, looks after small businesses to grow long term jobs and prosperity. it also needs to stop blaming men for everything. lifes probems are not about gender theyre about values, wealth, beliefs, learned behaviour , upbringing , opportunity etc etc

[arista]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

We haven't had it properly for a long time in Britain.. and socialism founded the NHS, council housing, welfare state.. I want to know what else can be achieved

Corbyn can have a go.

But New Labour (Red Tory)
are going to knife him in the back

[arista]

Originally Posted by the truth

socialism can work if its balanced. new labour were dishonest and corrupt so that will always fail. if it goes back to core values, common sense, looks after small businesses to grow long term jobs and prosperity. it also needs to stop blaming men for everything. lifes probems are not about gender theyre about values, wealth, beliefs, learned behaviour , upbringing , opportunity etc etc

They are Getting ready to Kill Off
Non Nuke Button Pushing Corbyn

[the truth]

if new labour knife corbyn they will die for eternity

[arista]

Originally Posted by the truth

if new labour knife corbyn they will die for eternity

Sad Future

[the truth]

wales has been ruled by labour for 80 years and its the poorest country in europe

[arista]

Originally Posted by the truth

wales has been ruled by labour for 80 years and its the poorest country in europe

Yes it needs to stop the Local Party
being mixed up in New Labour


Head in the Sand Territory

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

We haven't had it properly for a long time in Britain.. and socialism founded the NHS, council housing, welfare state.. I want to know what else can be achieved

Yes, it has never really had a chance.

Only the 1945 to 1951 Labour govts were just about wholly socialist in action. no Labour govts since have been or were able to be due to having to struggle with tiny majorities, 1964 to 1966 and feb 1974 to may 1979.
Tony Blair did some good things as to the most vulnerable but was nothing at all like resembling any kind of socialist govt.

Contrast that with around 70 years out the last 115 years where a Capitalist orientated govt, the Conservatives, has been in power with comfortable working majorities, yet still the UK is in chaos with so much needing to be addressed and made far better and fairer than it is.
Then yes, socialism should be given the chance for me which is why I now firmly support that opportunity possibly arising now.

Over the last 115 years, exclude the war years and National govt years, then all we have had in the main is Capitalist policies for as I said around 70 of those years,and they are what has failed the UK for over a century now, not socialism.

[arista]

"Yes, it has never really had a chance."


It Fecking Did
Rubbish Pilled up on our Streets
1978

Pure Labour then
Anti Europe

[arista]

I want my Fresh Baked Bran Roll
cooked that morning.

Thats True Capitalism

Choice to Buy
Choice to Sell
Open Markets

Joey ask your Dad

[arista]

1978 Labour Run UK

Fact

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"Yes, it has never really had a chance."


It Fecking Did
Rubbish Pilled up on our Streets
1978

Pure Labour then
Anti Europe

You can be very selective at times arista, I recall reading of the horror of the 3 day week and power cuts galore in 1973/early 1974 under Edward Heaths Conservative govt.

Labour gets accused of being in the Unions pockets, yet this was a Labour administration helped to have been brought down by Unions in 1978/9.

I say Labour administration because it wasn't a majority Labour govt,it had the support of the LIberals in Parliament until 1978,it had no overall majority from late 1976 and so in effect was a party in office that could only govern with the will of Parliament as to what it could do.


Also, in 1978/1979 the mass of the Labour party under James Callaghan was in no way anti Europe, we had just had 3 years earlier a vote by the UK to be in Europe by a solid majority.

[arista]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

You can be very selective at times arista, I recall reading of the horror of the 3 day week and power cuts galore in 1973/early 1974 under Edward Heaths Conservative govt.

Labour gets accused of being in the Unions pockets, yet this was a Labour administration helped to have been brought down by Unions in 1978/9.

I say Labour administration because it wasn't a majority Labour govt,it had the support of the LIberals in Parliament until 1978,it had no overall majority from late 1976 and so in effect was a party in office that could only govern with the will of Parliament as to what it could do.


Also, in 1978/1979 the mass of the Labour party under James Callaghan was in no way anti Europe, we had just had 3 years earlier a vote by the UK to be in Europe by a solid majority.

This is Not about T. Heath
I am on topic with you Fecking Failed Socialism
1978 Rubbish all over OUR streets


Callaghan Laughed at Thatcher
saying she will not beat me.

Fecking Fool

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

This is Not about T. Heath
I am on topic with you Fecking Failed Socialism
1978 Rubbish all over OUR streets


Callaghan Laughed at Thatcher
saying she will not beat me.

Fecking Fool

We didn't have a socialist govt then that could do its policies, that is my point.
He had no overall majority, he head to rely on other parties to get things through.
So part of that mess must have been the cause of those parties not allowing the right policies to be enacted.

It always amuses me that Conservatives highlight that winter of chaos 1978/9 while ignoring the disastrous 3 day week and crippling power cuts over winter 1973/4 as a result of their govt in power at the time.
Another capitalist policy failure to add to my post above.

[bots]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

You can be very selective at times arista, I recall reading of the horror of the 3 day week and power cuts galore in 1973/early 1974 under Edward Heaths Conservative govt.

Labour gets accused of being in the Unions pockets, yet this was a Labour administration helped to have been brought down by Unions in 1978/9.

I say Labour administration because it wasn't a majority Labour govt,it had the support of the LIberals in Parliament until 1978,it had no overall majority from late 1976 and so in effect was a party in office that could only govern with the will of Parliament as to what it could do.


Also, in 1978/1979 the mass of the Labour party under James Callaghan was in no way anti Europe, we had just had 3 years earlier a vote by the UK to be in Europe by a solid majority.

It was the miners that caused the problems with Heaths government, that held the country to ransom, forced power cuts and a 3 day week. It was directly because of that, that Thatcher set out to destroy their capability to do that ever again.

Labour were responsible for the rubbish in the streets, its just not correct to try and blame others. The Callaghan government was absolutely awful. It was labours abysmal record during that period that prompted the voters to elect Thatcher. Of all the governments from the 60's through to the present day, the Callaghan government was the worst by a country mile.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

It was the miners that caused the problems with Heaths government, that held the country to ransom, forced power cuts and a 3 day week. It was directly because of that, that Thatcher set out to destroy their capability to do that ever again.

Labour were responsible for the rubbish in the streets, its just not correct to try and blame others. The Callaghan government was absolutely awful. It was labours abysmal record during that period that prompted the voters to elect Thatcher. Of all the governments from the 60's through to the present day, the Callaghan government was the worst by a country mile.

We didn't have Labour govt between 1977 and 1979,that is my point, there was a lib Lab pact in 1977/78 with agreed policies of both parties.

It is hardly fair to blame the miners for the chaos for the 1973/4 while not blaming the Unions for the 1978/9.

Again selective as to the 2 parties, Heaths govt by 1971 had the first 1,000,000 unemployed figure since before the war.
They created bad feeling and chaos over their only 3 and a half years in govt too.

The Callaghan govt never had a majority in parliament unlike that heath govt.

Personally I see no difference as to the 2 winters of chaos, both had Union unrest, both had govts refusing to give in and both govts fell because of it.
The only difference is, one was a govt with a 20+ working majority, the other was a minority govt,fully reliant on all other parties in the Commons.

Nothing party political just a fact.

[arista]

"capitalist policy failure"

Stop comparing Like For Like

Its never that simple.


Blair in Power was a Red Tory
he was the Son of Thatcher.

So Labour under Corbyn
is great - But the Stupid leader
is Anti Nukes - He Will not Change
so New Labour team will get him out

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"capitalist policy failure"

Stop comparing Like For Like

Its never that simple.
Blair in Power was a Red Tory
he was the Son of Thatcher.

So Labour under Corbyn
is great - But the Stupid leader
is Anti Nukes - He Will not Change
so New Labour team will get him out

It is for me and I will compare how I like with respect.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

It was the miners that caused the problems with Heaths government, that held the country to ransom, forced power cuts and a 3 day week. It was directly because of that, that Thatcher set out to destroy their capability to do that ever again.

Labour were responsible for the rubbish in the streets, its just not correct to try and blame others. The Callaghan government was absolutely awful. It was labours abysmal record during that period that prompted the voters to elect Thatcher. Of all the governments from the 60's through to the present day, the Callaghan government was the worst by a country mile.

They wanted fair wages and compensation when they got pneumoconiosis.
Thatcher did us a favour, if you ignore the 'heat or eat' choice many have to make each winter thanks to the cost of outsourcing.
We are all cheering the dismantling of infrastructure in the UK started with Thatcher.
What industry do we have now of any value? Nothing.

[bots]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

We didn't have Labour govt between 1977 and 1979,that is my point, there was a lib Lab pact in 1977/78 with agreed policies of both parties.

It was a labour government supported by the liberals. It wasn't even a coalition.

It is hardly fair to blame the miners for the chaos for the 1973/4 while not blaming the Unions for the 1978/9.

I can and I will having experienced both governments first hand

Personally I see no difference as to the 2 winters of chaos, both had Union unrest, both had govts refusing to give in and both govts fell because of it.
The only difference is, one was a govt with a 20+ working majority, the other was a minority govt,fully reliant on all other parties in the Commons.

Nothing party political just a fact.

You may not chose to see anything different, but there was a massive difference

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

It was a labour government supported by the liberals. It wasn't even a coalition.



I can and I will having experienced both governments first hand




You may not chose to see anything different, but there was a massive difference

Oh come on, bitontheslide, you are usually a lot fairer than that.

It was formal agreed period between the Labour and Liberal parties on a set of policies, to ensure the passage of those policies with Liberal support easily through the Commons.

Not wholly the desired Labour policies but vastly watered down Labour ones to gain that support.

I have to say I am surprised by your post but we have made our points and will clearly massively disagree on how we see the comparison.
I actually see little differences and from what I have been told the 3 day week brought chaos unimagined to homes, workers and businesses.
Just as the other winter of chaos did too.