[Crimson Dynamo]

The former prime minister's wife, who sits as a judge as Cherie Booth QC, told Shamso Miah that she would suspend his prison sentence because he was a "religious man".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...religious.html


What do you make of this?

[Jessica.]

ew

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The former prime minister's wife, who sits as a judge as Cherie Booth QC, told Shamso Miah that she would suspend his prison sentence because he was a "religious man".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...religious.html


What do you make of this?

She gets uglier doesn't she?

[Dr.Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Shasown

She gets uglier doesn't she?

She should be propping up the bar at the Moss Eisley Cantina.

[Mystic Mock]

what about the time when she said the jews deserved to be bombed im not to surprised at this

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by jedward fever

what about the time when she said the jews deserved to be bombed im not to surprised at this

Cherie said that?

[bananarama]

Religion is a bit like the Free Masons.....They look after their own.......and stuff justice......

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by bananarama

Religion is a bit like the Free Masons.....They look after their own.......and stuff justice......

lol at Free Masons

do you get them in cornflakes?

[bananarama]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

lol at Free Masons

do you get them in cornflakes?

No . Of course not. "Shredded wheat".

[Angus]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The former prime minister's wife, who sits as a judge as Cherie Booth QC, told Shamso Miah that she would suspend his prison sentence because he was a "religious man".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...religious.html


What do you make of this?

He wasn't that religious when he was assaulting his poor victim was he?
Cherie Blair is a *****ing joke, lining her pockets with cases she gets under Human Rights legislation, conveniently pushed through the statute books by her ever loving hubby. Anyone still thinking of voting New Labour needs their heads examined. Another four years under their jackboot and this government will be interfering in every aspect of our lives, spying on us, controlling us and monitoring our every word and action in case we are slagging them off.

What message does Cherie Blair send? Well you can kick the sh*t out of someone, even maybe murder them, just so long as you go to the church or the mosque afterwards and pray.

[Shasown]

I would have thought that being religious and knowing what he had done as being unacceptable both socially and in a religious sense, he should have felt the full force of the law and even if it was his first offense, he should have seen some "peter" time.

BTW what is a "mild" fracture to the jaw?

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The former prime minister's wife, who sits as a judge as Cherie Booth QC, told Shamso Miah that she would suspend his prison sentence because he was a "religious man".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...religious.html

What do you make of this?

First I object to the description 'Religious'. This is akin to saying 'Citizen' or 'Club Member'. What religion? What organization?
There is no such religion as 'The Religion' where 'Religion followers' practice 'Religion'.
OK.
Getting to the point here:
- There cannot be any difference for a (muslim, tory, christian, chelsea fan) in the Courts.
IF anything you might argue that some ought to 'know better' as maybe their organization emphasizes (for example) thou should not punch peoples faces,
but,
the main thing here is that everyone is equal. Lady Justice is blind. Everyone is under the same contract. They are not 'more guilty' for the invalid reasons they give either.

Now here might be where you CAN make a case:
- To some extent the incarceration is not only to punish or penalize but is also to protect the public.
IF he has shown he has been actively participating in organized society and NOT assaulting people (and even helping),
and,
Its is shown he is sincerely dedicating himself to a system of teachings opposing face-punching?
You can make a case he is demonstrating he does not need to be locked away from people and may better serve out his sentence some other way (community service is a good option for this dude).

Now the 'twist' here is getting back to 'what religion' or 'what organization' are they attending.
In this case I might suppose that if the man is demonstrating more dedication to Islam then that is all the more reason to be afraid of him carrying out more violence in the future.

But yeah.. interesting topic and some good questions here.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by ElProximo

In this case I might suppose that if the man is demonstrating more dedication to Islam then that is all the more reason to be afraid of him carrying out more violence in the future.

On what evidence do you make such a ludicrous statement?

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by Shasown

On what evidence do you make such a ludicrous statement?

Here let me see if I can embed this counter in a post:

<p><a href="http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/">
<img border="0" alt="Thousands of Deadly Islamic Terror Attacks Since 9/11" src="http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/TROP.jpg"> </a></p>

Oh maybe not.
OK.
Well its a counter showing the number of terror attacks by people who took an increasing interest in following the rules of Islam.
In fact, almost every terrorist attack and almost the entire body count has something in common:
It was carried out by someone who decided to start taking the Koran seriously and following its advice.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/LinktoTROP.htm


Here is the latest updates... its pretty much updated daily

2010.02.14 (Pattani, Thailand) - Islamists brutally murder a Buddhist woman and her 13-year-old daughter.
2010.02.13 (Narathiwat, Thailand) - A 44-year-old man is gunned down by Islamic militants while using the restroom.
2010.02.13 (Pattani, Thailand) - Muslim militants shoot a man sitting on his front porch with friends.
2010.02.13 (Kandahar, Afghanistan) - A Fedayeen suicide bomber sends two other souls to Allah.
2010.02.13 (Kufa, Iraq) - A female suicide bomber murders at least six Shia pilgrims headed to a religious ceremony.
2010.02.13 (Pune, India) - Five women are among nine innocents blasted to death by a Shahid suicide bomber at a bakery near a Jewish center.........................

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by ElProximo

Here let me see if I can embed this counter in a post:

<p><a href="http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/">
<img border="0" alt="Thousands of Deadly Islamic Terror Attacks Since 9/11" src="http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/TROP.jpg"> </a></p>

Oh maybe not.
OK.
Well its a counter showing the number of terror attacks by people who took an increasing interest in following the rules of Islam.
In fact, almost every terrorist attack and almost the entire body count has something in common:
It was carried out by someone who decided to start taking the Koran seriously and following its advice.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/LinktoTROP.htm


Here is the latest updates... its pretty much updated daily

2010.02.14 (Pattani, Thailand) - Islamists brutally murder a Buddhist woman and her 13-year-old daughter.
2010.02.13 (Narathiwat, Thailand) - A 44-year-old man is gunned down by Islamic militants while using the restroom.
2010.02.13 (Pattani, Thailand) - Muslim militants shoot a man sitting on his front porch with friends.
2010.02.13 (Kandahar, Afghanistan) - A Fedayeen suicide bomber sends two other souls to Allah.
2010.02.13 (Kufa, Iraq) - A female suicide bomber murders at least six Shia pilgrims headed to a religious ceremony.
2010.02.13 (Pune, India) - Five women are among nine innocents blasted to death by a Shahid suicide bomber at a bakery near a Jewish center.........................

So in your eyes all muslims are terrorist sleepers just waiting for the nod?

What about the PIRA, UDA, UVF, INLA, Baader Meinhoff, Black September, Communist Party of India, Red Brigade, numerous Tamil organisations Manuel Rodriguez Patriotic Front (FPMR) Kmher Rouge. ETA. Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC). Revolutionary Organization 17 November. Revolutionary People’s Liberation Party/Front (DHKP/C). Revolutionary Struggle. Shining Path (Sendero Luminoso, SL). United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia (AUC).
(and as Jimmy Cricket used to say"and theres more"), were they all secret Koran/Quran carriers too?

The ANC were outlawed as terrorists too.

Instead of viewing things purely through the eyes of an anti islam site. try somewhere like http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/terrorist-groups.cfm Not all of the above list will be on it, you could use google or simialar to check them out.

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by Shasown

So in your eyes all muslims are terrorist sleepers just waiting for the nod?

No.
Why would you ask that question?

What about the PIRA, UDA, UVF, ...

What about them?
They cancel out other terrorist or what?

Most terrorist attacks will be carried out by someone who was intending to follow Islam as closely as properly as possible.
Not 'despite' their adherence but actually because of it.

Most Muslims will not commit the terrorist attack just as most Brits never actually served in action in WW2.
Most Muslims in the world will agree with, condone or 'prefer' most Islamic terrorist attacks.

Obviously this is not 'all Muslims' because thankfully so many are better people and smarter people than Mohammad and they won't actually take that Koran too seriously.
In this case - the ones who 'fall away' or take a 'liberal view' are less likely to create or condone violence.

Now if you want to compare to something take Buddhists and Christians.
The MORE the Christian follows his bible and the more seriously he adheres the less he will be motivated to explode a gay nightclub.
The MORE the Buddhist sticks to his teachings the less excuse he can find for murdering opposition in Tibet.
It is possible on of them does pull **** like that but it will be IN SPITE of their teachings or as they fall away, forget or ignore their religious teachings.

You see there is a big difference here and its one reason why it is unhelpful and even 'senseless' and confusing to say of someone 'They are religious'.
What religion?
It can imply very different ideas and practices depending on which and how much.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by ElProximo

Why would you ask that question?

I asked that question because of this comment and the one sided bile you posted.

Originally Posted by ElProximo

In this case I might suppose that if the man is demonstrating more dedication to Islam then that is all the more reason to be afraid of him carrying out more violence in the future.

Thats a very bigotted view, have you for example studied the Qu'ran? I bet the answers no but you have read all the bile on certain anti-islamic sites. So you now know that a true Muslim wants to spread the word of Allah and kill all infidels, there are similar quotes in the bible about spreading the word of God.

Originally Posted by ElProximo

Most Muslims in the world will agree with, condone or 'prefer' most Islamic terrorist attacks.

Where did you get that nugget of non information from? You have statistics to back that up?

Originally Posted by ElProximo

The MORE the Christian follows his bible and the more seriously he adheres the less he will be motivated to explode a gay nightclub.

What garbage, a fundamental Christian following the bible can find sections of the bible that advocate the killing of homosexuals etc. There just isnt the promise of a hero's welcome and reward of 72 virgins. If you want to read up on some of the carnage created by "fundi christians" try an in depth study of Beirut and the Lebanon. Or you could start here http://www.jesus21.com/content/sex/index.php?s=mormon

Obviously you dont like Muslims, but it is pointless of tarring them all with the same brush. What you advocate is called religious bigotry, in some cases its covered by anti-racism and other anti social behaviour laws. It is no better than the rantings of fundamental Muslim mullahs.

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by Shasown

I asked that question because of this comment and the one sided bile you posted.

So you ask nonsensical questions to counter something you dislike?
What an odd way to communicate.

Thats a very bigotted view, have you for example studied the Qu'ran? I bet the answers no but you have read all the bile on certain anti-islamic sites. So you now know that a true Muslim wants to spread the word of Allah and kill all infidels, there are similar quotes in the bible about spreading the word of God.

First, you should know that bile is essential to our bodies health and keeps us alive and well.

I haven't studied the entire Koran but I can tell you it says a lot of things and those do include plenty of encouragements to kill, slaughter, destroy and make war on infidels, in the name of Allah so they will submit to Allah.
however...
...Actually this is NOT as simple as reading it and then you ought to immediately murder the next Jew you see (as some Muslim sects would teach) but this is the 'last resort' and 'when expedient'.
If it were going to help you would.
IF Saudi Arabia COULD defeat the UK, take power and bring all Brits 'under the house of Islam' then they SHOULD do that,
but,
As long as it is better to reach that goal through immigration, evangelism and conversion then that is what you do.

So its really not complicated here - whatever means best bring that land and people to submit will be the preferred means.
Simple as that.

Where did you get that nugget of non information from? You have statistics to back that up?

Do you ever wonder why there was nothing but silence from the Islamic world following (nearly any) terrorist attacks?

Plenty of polls and stats were attempted across the Arab world and many with some very convoluted wording,
but,
the overall story is that majorities of Muslims in the Arab world DONT condemn these attacks and say they are 'better than nothing'.

You go fetch me the stats. I'm sure you can cherry-pick some select polls suggesting the opposite. Good luck!
I was with a group of Muslims who celebrated and cheered a suicide-bomb in Indonesia that killed mostly Australians.
You would have thought the home team just won the World Cup.

What garbage, a fundamental Christian following the bible can find sections of the bible that advocate the killing of homosexuals etc. There just isnt the promise of a hero's welcome and reward of 72 virgins. If you want to read up on some of the carnage created by "fundi christians" try an in depth study of Beirut and the Lebanon. Or you could start here http://www.jesus21.com/content/sex/index.php?s=mormon

Actually an Israelite could find an instruction to execute other Israelites who engaged in homosexuality.
I do not know if orthodox Jews still practice that within their own community but I suppose they simply 'shun' them now.

Iran regularly hangs homosexuals.

Obviously you dont like Muslims,

That is not obvious and I think you just accused me of that so to manipulate hatred against me.

In fact I happen to really love most Muslims I have met. Not all of them but most of them so far.
In fact, I think Iranians are some of the kindest, most polite, easy-going and genuinely friendly people on the planet.
In fact... I think the vast majority of Muslims deserve far better than the rubbish Mohammad gave them.
They are too good for that Koran. They are much bigger and better than what Islam offers them.

but it is pointless of tarring them all with the same brush. What you advocate is called religious bigotry, in some cases its covered by anti-racism and other anti social behaviour laws. It is no better than the rantings of fundamental Muslim mullahs.

I bet you would love to get my thoughts and opinions banned so that (you believe) nobody else will hear and agree with them,
but,
If there was anything wrong with what I'm telling you then you ought to welcome the opportunity to correct it.
IF you REALLY cared about the truth?

I have just told you that the vast majority of terrorist attacks in recent decades are mostly committed by men who want to adhere more strictly to Islam.
Sorry to tell you the truth.
If you really cared about Muslims you would want to stop this. So far these acts end up hurting... hurting other Muslims. Directly and indirectly.
and,
since you are so against 'hate crimes' then maybe you need to be concerned about how many dedicated Muslims study the Koran diligently and participate intensely before MURDERING JEWS, BUDDHIST, CHRISTIANS and many others BECAUSE they are those faiths and BECAUSE they are not Muslims.

Where is your 'anti-bigotry' now?

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by ElProximo

So you ask nonsensical questions to counter something you dislike?
What an odd way to communicate.

First, you should know that bile is essential to our bodies health and keeps us alive and well.

Thank you for reminding me, the word is also used to describe bitterness and hatred. Incidentally an odd way to communicate is to make claims then fail to provide supporting evidence when challenged. I call it a Loser's strategy, now I know what the El in El Proximo stands for.

Originally Posted by ElProximo

I haven't studied the entire Koran but I can tell you it says a lot of things and those do include plenty of encouragements to kill, slaughter, destroy and make war on infidels, in the name of Allah so they will submit to Allah.
however...

And of course the Bible doesnt advocate and exemplify the same actions? In fact isnt that exactly the actions taken in the name of the Christian church through history. If subverting the local pagans etc by taking over their feasts etc and incorporating them into christianity failed.(Essenes, Gnostics, Spanish Inquisition, Conquest of S and Central America... to name a few).

The Qur'an commands Muslims to stick up for themselves in a defensive battle -- i.e. if an enemy army attacks, then Muslims are to fight against that army until they stop their aggression. All of the verses that speak about fighting/war in the Qur'an are in this context.

There are some specific verses that are very often "snipped" out of context, either by critics of Islam discussing "jihadism," or by misguided Muslims themselves who wish to justify their aggressive tactics.

For example, one verse (in its snipped version) reads: "slay them wherever you catch them" (Qur'an 2:191). But who is this referring to? Who are "they" that this verse discusses? The preceding and following verses give the correct context:

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter... But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful... If they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression" (2:190-193).

It is clear from the context that these verses are discussing a defensive war, when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith. In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back -- but even then Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up. Even in these circumstances, Muslim are only to fight directly against those who are attacking them, not innocent bystanders or non-combatants.

Originally Posted by ElProximo

Do you ever wonder why there was nothing but silence from the Islamic world following (nearly any) terrorist attacks?

Probably because they feel shocked about the actions carried out in the name of Islam. There are plenty of Muslims who would condemn the atrocities if given the airtime.

Originally Posted by ElProximo

Plenty of polls and stats were attempted across the Arab world and many with some very convoluted wording, but, the overall story is that majorities of Muslims in the Arab world DONT condemn these attacks and say they are 'better than nothing'.

And you can of course prove this?

Originally Posted by ElProximo

You go fetch me the stats. I'm sure you can cherry-pick some select polls suggesting the opposite. Good luck!

A typical El Proximo answer: "I said it it must be true. I cant prove it because I... well I cant, you go do the legwork!"

Originally Posted by ElProximo

I was with a group of Muslims who celebrated and cheered a suicide-bomb in Indonesia that killed mostly Australians.
You would have thought the home team just won the World Cup.

Of course you were honey!

Originally Posted by ElProximo

This is not obvious and I think you just accused me of that so to manipulate hatred against me.

I dont need to do that, you are more than adept at doing that yourself

Originally Posted by ElProximo

In fact I happen to really love most Muslims I have met. Not all of them but most of them so far. In fact, I think Iranians are some of the kindest, most polite, easy-going and genuinely friendly people on the planet.

Including the Iranians who "regularly hang" homosexuals? Thats quite convulted in itself, isnt it? On one hand you say Muslims are quite blood thirsty, supporting terrorism etc and on the other but you love most of them so far.

Originally Posted by ElProximo

In fact... I think the vast majority of Muslims deserve far better than the rubbish Mohammad gave them.

That sort of comment has lead to a fatwah being pronounced on people. I can but dream eh? PMSL

Originally Posted by ElProximo

I bet you would love to get my thoughts and opinions banned so that (you believe) nobody else will hear and agree with them, but, If there was anything wrong with what I'm telling you then you ought to welcome the opportunity to correct it.
IF you REALLY cared about the truth?

Yes its simple really, you are ignorant and a bigot.

Originally Posted by ElProximo

I have just told you that the vast majority of terrorist attacks in recent decades are mostly committed by men who want to adhere more strictly to Islam.
Sorry to tell you the truth.

Yes you have told us, that doesnt make it true though, does it?

Originally Posted by ElProximo

About how many dedicated Muslims study the Koran diligently and participate intensely before MURDERING JEWS, BUDDHIST, CHRISTIANS and many others BECAUSE they are those faiths and BECAUSE they are not Muslims.

Where is your 'anti-bigotry' now?

I would suggest you educate yourself in World Terrorism over "recent decades" as you put it before making such claims. Because you appear to be basing said claims on information coming from anti-islam sites. Are you talking body counts or incidents?

Incidentally a suicide bomber doesnt care who he takes out, he has been brainwashed to believe if he and other muslims die in a good cause "fighting the good fight" they all go to the afterlife as heroes. They strike to create terror, thats why its called terrorism, to undermine people's belief in the current regime and also it creates publicity for their cause, it may even have a tactical or strategic value.

You might also want to look up the recent conflict in the Former republics of Yugoslavia and see who was on the wrong end of most of the Ethnic Cleansing. Mind you thats probably something you agree within your heart of hearts.

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by Shasown

The Qur'an commands Muslims to stick up for themselves in a defensive battle -- i.e. if an enemy army attacks, then Muslims are to fight against that army until they stop their aggression. All of the verses that speak about fighting/war in the Qur'an are in this context.

There are some specific verses that are very often "snipped" out of context, either by critics of Islam discussing "jihadism," or by misguided Muslims themselves who wish to justify their aggressive tactics.

For example, one verse (in its snipped version) reads: "slay them wherever you catch them" (Qur'an 2:191). But who is this referring to? Who are "they" that this verse discusses? The preceding and following verses give the correct context:

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter... But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful... If they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression" (2:190-193).

It is clear from the context that these verses are discussing a defensive war, when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith. In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back -- but even then Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up. Even in these circumstances, Muslim are only to fight directly against those who are attacking them, not innocent bystanders or non-combatants.

Yes, it is common for Muslim apologists a 'mistaken passage' then show how it might be misunderstood.. then 'correct' what nobody has made incorrect.

The problem is that the Koran DOES start out with a few 'fair' sounding appeals.
Starts with some rules for the 'truth givers' to know how to 'decide' who shall be killed or who shall not.
As if it were for Muslims to 'decide' how to treat or kill or not,
but,
The Koran says other things as Mohammad gets more power and more enemies and more resistance.

Here is Mohammad having captured the Jews:

Ishaq:464

"The Jews were made to come down, and Allah's Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina, and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men. As they were being taken in small groups to the Prophet, they said to one another, 'What do you think will be done to us?' Someone said, 'Do you not understand. On each occasion do you not see that the summoner never stops? He does not discharge anyone. And that those who are taken away do not come back. By God, it is death!' The affair continued until the Messenger of Allah had finished with them all."

And of course Mohammad made sure some of the women were brought down to watch their husbands beheading.
Afterward;

Tabari VIII:38 "The Messenger of Allah commanded that all of the Jewish men and boys who had reached puberty should be beheaded. Then the Prophet divided the wealth, wives, and children of the Qurayza Jews among the Muslims."

But yeah, we can go over Koran verses and Hadith accounts all day and night if you want to 'clarify' these.
You can keep trying to reinterpret every single story into the most desperate attempts to look as if it was 'Self Defense',
but,
You know, having surrounded and captured Jews and slaughtering boys and men systematically, having the wives watching it, taking the wives and children as booty...
.......it is just better to admit they absolutely did force submission (islam) whenever possible.

Qur'an:8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."

Yeah.. no wonder nearly ALL terror attacks and deaths are from young men who intended to follow the Koran more closely.

[Beastie]

You do the crime, you do the time whether you are religious or not. People use religion as an excuse to get out of something.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by thebeast

You do the crime, you do the time whether you are religious or not. People use religion as an excuse to get out of something.

i cant comment on your rather vague statement wot wiv me being religious

[Harry!]

If I am religious and I murder a person, Is that any different to a non religious person doing the same thing.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Recylopse

If I am religious and I murder a person, Is that any different to a non religious person doing the same thing.

yes

you are now the religion murderer and have a edge in jail.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Recylopse

If I am religious and I murder a person, Is that any different to a non religious person doing the same thing.

Yes. Apparently, if you are sorry and accept Jesus Christ in to your heart, you get a place in heaven next to Gandhi and Rush Limbaugh.