[Tom4784]

NFL teams will be fined if players kneel for the US national anthem under a new policy.

The American football league said players who do not stand for the Star-Spangled Banner can stay in the locker room until it has been performed.

The NFL also vowed to "impose appropriate discipline on league personnel who do not stand and show respect for the flag and the Anthem."​

Players said the protests were against policy brutality of African Americans.

"It was unfortunate that on-field protests created a false perception among many that thousands of NFL players were unpatriotic," said NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell in a statement accompanying Wednesday's new policy.

"This is not and was never the case. This season, all league and team personnel shall stand and show respect for the flag and the Anthem.

"Personnel who choose not to stand for the Anthem may stay in the locker room until after the Anthem has been performed."

"All team and league personnel on the field shall stand and show respect for the flag and the Anthem," the first provision of the new policy reads.

Before, NFL players were required to be on the field for the anthem, but there was no firm directive to stand for the anthem.

The policy also includes the provision that individual clubs can develop their own rules - that abide by the new principles - about how to handle personnel who do not wish to stand.

It does not state how much clubs will be fined should their players protest on the field, but gives them the option to fine players for breaking the new rules.

The statement comes a day after NFL teams pledged $90m towards social justice initiatives, under an agreement reached with all 32 teams in the league.

The debate over the kneeling protests began in 2016, when San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick refused to stand for the anthem.

Similar demonstrations spread across the league, where most players are African American.

Some kneeled, as Mr Kaepernick had done, while others linked arms to show solidarity for the movement.

President Donald Trump was highly critical of the protests, calling them "disgraceful" and unpatriotic. He also urged the players to be fired.

US Vice-President Mike Pence also left an NFL game because players from Mr Kaepernick's team knelt during the anthem.

The league has also been dealing with declines in viewership.

What has the reaction been?
The NFL Players Association (NFLPA) issued a statement following the policy announcement saying they were not consulted.

"NFL players have shown their patriotism through their social activism, their community service, in support of our military and law enforcement and yes, through their protests to raise awareness about the issues they care about," the statement reads.

"The vote by NFL club CEOs today contradicts the statements made to our player leadership by Commissioner Roger Goodell and the Chairman of the NFL's Management Council John Mara about the principles, values and patriotism of our League."

The union said it will be reviewing the policy and will challenge aspects that are inconsistent with the collective bargaining agreement.

As I said when someone brought this to my attention a short while ago, America's all about freedom of speech....as long as it doesn't offend the Right Wing.

It's an utterly ridiculous ruling that flies in the face of principles that America was built upon. To disallow people to peacefully protest in a harmless was is about as unpatriotic as you can get.

[Oliver_W]

#TheTheKnee has a totally different meaning for me

Spoiler:

It means I'm praying to Jesus

But yeah, if someone wants to make an exhibition of themselves, let them do it.

[montblanc]

a prime example of the hypocrisy in this country

"freedom of speech" my ass

[montblanc]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

America's all about freedom of speech....as long as it doesn't offend the Right Wing.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by montblanc

The left wing have the audacity to speak of free speech with all their PC demands trying to dictate what everyone else can and cannot think, nevermind say.

[MB.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

The left wing have the audacity to speak of free speech with all their PC demands trying to dictate what everyone else can and cannot think, nevermind say.

That's lovely dear, meanwhile black people are getting killed by the police

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

The left wing have the audacity to speak of free speech with all their PC demands trying to dictate what everyone else can and cannot think, nevermind say.

Care to add anything to the thread? You know, the subject of the Right Wing pressuring organisations to force people to stand during the anthem in order to prevent them from protesting racially motivated police brutality?

Your point may have been relevant but I don't see any left wing organisations agreeing with this decision so your PC-related ire should probably be redirected to the right since it's them that are being overly PC in this story. You should probably read the article before commenting in future.

[montblanc]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

The left wing have the audacity to speak of free speech with all their PC demands trying to dictate what everyone else can and cannot think, nevermind say.

isn't that exactly what the right wing is doing in this situation?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by montblanc

isn't that exactly what the right wing is doing in this situation?

Maybe - but if the left wing have been doing the same type of thing for some time they are hardly in a position to moan about it. I agree with Maru they should protest on their own time.

[montblanc]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Maybe - but if the left wing have been doing the same type of thing for some time they are hardly in a position to moan about it. I agree with Maru they should protest on their own time.

but people DO protest on their own time and the right still have a problem with it

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Maybe - but if the left wing have been doing the same type of thing for some time they are hardly in a position to moan about it. I agree with Maru they should protest on their own time.

That's terrible logic, though.

'I hate PC but it's okay when the right does it because the left is still to blame somehow!'

You cannot be opposed to PC and then be fine with it when it suits you. It's completely hypocritical.

All they are doing is kneeling, they aren't refusing to do their jobs, they aren't doing anything differently other than not standing when someone sings a song. It's a ridiculous move by the NFL and one prompted by Right Wing pressure, as I said in the first post. Freedom of speech is great as long as you don't offend the right wing.

[Maru]

Business-wise, they're probably doing it to protect their viewing numbers. The NFL has been taking a ratings hit and some suspect it's do with the politicization... it has 0 to do with being Right-wing. Politics has seeped into every TV show, every life performance, etc... some of my favorite shows became heavily politicized and I stopped watching because it took away from the immersion in some cases. It's not that I don't care about politics, I listen and watch to a lot of different forms of political media in my own time, but it's gone way overboard here in the States and is ruining entertainment...

I think the NBA did the same thing. Good call imo... if they want to be an activist for some cause, do it in their own time and not on someone else's dime. It's a little bit different than a player being interviewed and someone asking what their cause(s), opinions are... that I think is OK... but during a live show, it's literally preaching and it's gone quite a bit overboard in the US as far as live entertainment. It's become quite toxic.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Maru

Business-wise, they're probably doing it to protect their viewing numbers. The NFL has been taking a ratings hit and some suspect it's do with the politicization... it has 0 to do with being Right-wing. Politics has seeped into every TV show, every life performance, etc... some of my favorite shows became heavily politicized and I stopped watching because it took away from the immersion in some cases. It's not that I don't care about politics, I listen and watch to a lot of different forms of political media in my own time, but it's gone way overboard here in the States and is ruining entertainment...

I think the NBA did the same thing. Good call imo... if they want to be an activist for some cause, do it in their own time and not on someone else's dime. It's a little bit different than a player being interviewed and someone asking what their cause(s), opinions are... that I think is OK... but during a live show, it's literally preaching and it's gone quite a bit overboard in the US as far as live entertainment. It's become quite toxic.

It say it's got nothing to do with the right wing is utterly ridiculous. It's the Fox News', the Donald Trumps, the Breitbarts and other Right Wing people that are upset that certain people don't do things the way they want them to. These are the kinds of people that use the term 'snowflakes' without realising they are the biggest snowflakes around. Forcing people to react to the national anthem the way how you want them to react is as unpatriotic as it gets and the NFL has given in to right wing pressure. It's an attempt through intimidation by the Right Wing to silence issues that offend them.

If anyone finds someone silently kneeling to be too much, toxic or preaching, then they need to toughen up. As long as these players do their jobs on the field it should be up to them how they position themselves during the national anthem.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It say it's got nothing to do with the right wing is utterly ridiculous. It's the Fox News', the Donald Trumps, the Breitbarts and other Right Wing people that are upset that certain people don't do things the way they want them to. These are the kinds of people that use the term 'snowflakes' without realising they are the biggest snowflakes around. Forcing people to react to the national anthem the way how you want them to react is as unpatriotic as it gets and the NFL has given in to right wing pressure. It's an attempt through intimidation by the Right Wing to silence issues that offend them.

If anyone finds someone silently kneeling to be too much, toxic or preaching, then they need to toughen up. As long as these players do their jobs on the field it should be up to them how they position themselves during the national anthem.

I don't agree with that really. I think that people who are for the large part fairly apolitical are starting to vote for their feet and I don't think it's a sudden thing. We're assuming that the US has a high population of hyper-partisanship. I think that's far too kind. Maybe it seems that way because the left dominates so much of media (and social media in many cases) and it can seem like it's always reciprocal effect, but there are still many people who are quite apathetic towards politics and are turned off when it comes up in conversations. It's not something people like to talk about for that reason, because it's always been an emotionally toxic topic and it is even more-so given the 2016 election(s)...

Anyway, I don't think it's as simple as shutting off out of outrage. I think it happens overtime as people are turned off by shifts in advertising, sports coverage and other "notable" figures using that airtime to get up on the pulpit. It has a negative effect on sports in general is my opinion.

There is also a trend that can be seen with polling, primary numbers (already way too low) and the presidential vote having a very low turn-out, where people really just feel the whole thing is rigged ...if I were running the NFL, it's not something I would want to be associated with the sport (that feeling of something being "rigged")... but politics has saturated all media and it knows no boundaries atm. So the more it gets injected into the sport and nothing to mitigate this, I think it turns some people off from the game. We're only accounting for the Republicans/Trump voters when we are talking about gauging the reaction of people who watch... I think it is seriously affecting apolitical folk as well... and I don't think that people boycott so much as news coverage likes to make it seem based on politics... there are a lot of people who love the game enough they will watch and gripe, but I imagine it's probably a combination of all other things plus the fact politics has saturated all media. I don't think the NFL is the only one who has witnessed this effect. That's why I don't really see it as just this or that. I think add it all together, people don't personally appreciate being "advertised to" when they're ready to relax in front of their favorite show... and a lot of the advertisements as well have gone that direction (that's why Superbowl it became less political this year as well).

The other pet peeve I hear from folk here, the NFL has always done things a certain way in some respects and to see the sport change and for it to buckle in this way and allow demonstrations ruins the spirit of the game for some. But honestly I think it's more of a saturation problem than a knee-jerk response... people are too fickle when it comes to boycotts for it to be just that.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Maru

I don't agree with that really. I think that people who are for the large part fairly apolitical are starting to vote for their feet and I don't think it's a sudden thing. We're assuming that the US has a high population of hyper-partisanship. I think that's far too kind. Maybe it seems that way because the left dominates so much of media (and social media in many cases) and it can seem like it's always reciprocal effect, but there are still many people who are quite apathetic towards politics and are turned off when it comes up in conversations. It's not something people like to talk about for that reason, because it's always been an emotionally toxic topic and it is even more-so given the 2016 election(s)...

Anyway, I don't think it's as simple as shutting off out of outrage. I think it happens overtime as people are turned off by shifts in advertising, sports coverage and other "notable" figures using that airtime to get up on the pulpit. It has a negative effect on sports in general is my opinion.

There is also a trend that can be seen with polling, primary numbers (already way too low) and the presidential vote having a very low turn-out, where people really just feel the whole thing is rigged ...if I were running the NFL, it's not something I would want to be associated with the sport (that feeling of something being "rigged")... but politics has saturated all media and it knows no boundaries atm. So the more it gets injected into the sport and nothing to mitigate this, I think it turns some people off from the game. We're only accounting for the Republicans/Trump voters when we are talking about gauging the reaction of people who watch... I think it is seriously affecting apolitical folk as well... and I don't think that people boycott so much as news coverage likes to make it seem based on politics... there are a lot of people who love the game enough they will watch and gripe, but I imagine it's probably a combination of all other things plus the fact politics has saturated all media. I don't think the NFL is the only one who has witnessed this effect. That's why I don't really see it as just this or that. I think add it all together, people don't personally appreciate being "advertised to" when they're ready to relax in front of their favorite show... and a lot of the advertisements as well have gone that direction (that's why Superbowl it became less political this year as well).

The other pet peeve I hear from folk here, the NFL has always done things a certain way in some respects and to see the sport change and for it to buckle in this way and allow demonstrations ruins the spirit of the game for some. But honestly I think it's more of a saturation problem than a knee-jerk response... people are too fickle when it comes to boycotts for it to be just that.

What an absolutely superbly written and insightful post, Maru, and oh so true.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Maru

Business-wise, they're probably doing it to protect their viewing numbers. The NFL has been taking a ratings hit and some suspect it's do with the politicization... it has 0 to do with being Right-wing. Politics has seeped into every TV show, every life performance, etc... some of my favorite shows became heavily politicized and I stopped watching because it took away from the immersion in some cases. It's not that I don't care about politics, I listen and watch to a lot of different forms of political media in my own time, but it's gone way overboard here in the States and is ruining entertainment...

I think the NBA did the same thing. Good call imo... if they want to be an activist for some cause, do it in their own time and not on someone else's dime. It's a little bit different than a player being interviewed and someone asking what their cause(s), opinions are... that I think is OK... but during a live show, it's literally preaching and it's gone quite a bit overboard in the US as far as live entertainment. It's become quite toxic.

The problem is the national anthem is always already political. So too is a flag. Hell, acknowledging the existence of national borders is political. There is no "true" escape from politics because it exists all around us. So really, forcing people to 'respect' a national anthem is a political move in and of itself.

This would be a lot worse if there wasn't an option for players to stay in the dressing room (and hopefully it's done on a mass scale for maximum embarrassment), but it still doesn't sit well with me that in a country that is supposed to be one of the bastions of western democracy, people are being told they can't peacefully protest during a political song.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Jack_

The problem is the national anthem is always already political. So too is a flag. Hell, acknowledging the existence of national borders is political. There is no "true" escape from politics because it exists all around us. So really, forcing people to 'respect' a national anthem is a political move in and of itself.

This would be a lot worse if there wasn't an option for players to stay in the dressing room (and hopefully it's done on a mass scale for maximum embarrassment), but it still doesn't sit well with me that in a country that is supposed to be one of the bastions of western democracy, people are being told they can't peacefully protest during a political song.

Politics has nothing to do with customs though. Every culture and every nation has some sort of custom when it comes to the flag. If you and I were in a country that had an anthem and a custom, we would be expected to follow that custom. That's any country, Western or not. To the do the opposite is simply anti-social behavior... and it's this anti-social behavior that is turns most people off of politics. Maybe some people are in favor of anti-social displays.. but I don't think any social fabric, much less a culture, would last very long in political turmoil without some sort of mutual custom(s) and unifying philosophy/ideology.

[Maru]

I guess look at it this way. If pro-Trump stuff was in the media all the time and it was a reminder to you of negative things, that would get really old fast and probably some of those sections of the population as well would tune out...and I personally feel if it's just the NFL, it's not that big of a deal... but everywhere we turn, there's reminders of politics somewhere, on either end of the spectrum. Sports is normally our only escape.

The NFL was always considered to be the sacred lamb, the only place we could go escape as a nation and relax... NFL particularly has always been considered a patriotic sport, but in a more unifying way in that it's always been an apolitical sport (though obviously pro-American)... despite natural disasters, war, despite all the things happening around the world, we always had the NFL... for example, during the Superbowl and the MLB championship in Houston, people were literally in their homes that were tore down the studs to watch the game on a TV set with very little furniture... that little escape is all some people really have to keep them going. Same with the inmates in jail... if there is a game on, it's super quiet, everyone is well-behaved, people who normally hate each other get together and cheer... it means so much to people.

[MB.]

What a thoroughly stupid country

[LeatherTrumpet]

get them Donald

[Northern Monkey]

I can see where the NFL is coming from.
People watch sports to escape from all the serious crap going on in the world.
When the anthem is played it’s live on TV,Part of the show and they are representing their organisation.
I’d guess that ratings went down when these players started bringing politics into the sport.
Pissing off a section of your audience is very bad for business.
I’d think any company would punish or sack employees that started to harm their image.
Leave politics out of sport.Let people enjoy it.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I can see where the NFL is coming from.
People watch sports to escape from all the serious crap going on in the world.
When the anthem is played it’s live on TV,Part of the show and they are representing their organisation.
I’d guess that ratings went down when these players started bringing politics into the sport.
Pissing off a section of your audience is very bad for business.
I’d think any company would punish or sack employees that started to harm their image.
Leave politics out of sport.Let people enjoy it.

Right. I don't even think that it has to do specifically with it being a particular message of any sort of affiliation... if anyone, right or left, interrupted the anthem during an NFL game then it's not necessarily going to go well with the base which is known to be very patriotic and has always considered it to be a unifying sport... like subtle messages during the halftime show (such as Gaga 2018) and post-game interviews, that's not really a big deal at all since it's just the player's personal opinions...

[Headie]

So when they sing 'land of the free' they obviously only mean for a select few

[montblanc]

Originally Posted by Hayden

So when they sing 'land of the free' they obviously only mean for a select few

Originally Posted by montblanc

it is to the many americans that still suffer from the institutionalized and blatant racism displayed by "the land of the free and the home of the brave"

[Shaun]

if they took their political protest off the field they'd just be accused of virtue-signalling or attention-seeking, and get a ton of "it's easy for you to say, in your $$$$$ mansions!" complaints. And then athletes who don't engage in politics, charity or local communities are accused of being selfish and shallow. Seems a lose-lose situation.

I don't know the words to the UK national anthem beyond the first verse - as I'm sure many here don't - but funnily enough it would be within my rights to say that's because it's a dreadfully dreary piece of music that should've been replaced with 'Jerusalem' months ago (I understand replacing things with Jerusalem is a little bit contentious lately, though ). I also am not a royalist so feel no sense of loyalty to the anthem. Does that mean I'm unpatriotic? If you're a royalist, sure. Key phrasing being 'if' though. To make a long post short: there shouldn't be a holy veil of protection around tokens and gestures of a country's sovereignty.