[Tom]

Originally posted by letmein

Pot calling the kettle.

When was I disrespectful? I said I disagree with being gay, not once did I say I don't have any respect for them etc. If you've read my posts properly you'll see I don't have a problem with the people, its their choice etc and that doesn't alter my opinion of people, I JUST DISAGREE WITH IT!!!

[letmein]

Originally posted by Tom

When was I disrespectful? I said I disagree with being gay, not once did I say I don't have any respect for them etc. If you've read my posts properly you'll see I don't have a problem with the people, its their choice etc and that doesn't alter my opinion of people, I JUST DISAGREE WITH IT!!!

It is not their choice. It is disrespectful to put down gay people for being gay. You "disagree" with their very existence, as though they chose it, or somehow shouldn't be it to begin with. Your comments are backhanded. Replace "gay," with, "Jew" and perhaps you'll get it, but probably not.

Some people just expect people to teach them how to "tie their shoelaces", so to speak. No one really has time to sit you down and explain the very hatefulness of your comments. You either get it, or you don't.

This entire thread is putting forth the question, "do you think we take a person's rights away or not". All people should be treated equally.

[hannah.]

the whole replacing gay with Jew thing is ridiculous. As a Christian I don't believe in what Jews believe in, and therefore disagree with their faith, but not them as individuals
GO FIGURE

[letmein]

Originally posted by hannah.
the whole replacing gay with Jew thing is ridiculous. As a Christian I don't believe in what Jews believe in, and therefore disagree with their faith, but not them as individuals
GO FIGURE

But you're not questioning whether Jews should have the same rights as Christians, correct?

[hannah.]

No, and at no point have I said that gays shouldn't be allowed to adopt, I just think that at this stage, bearing in mind a lot of people's views on it, it's unfair on the children.

[Wildcat!]

It is not their choice. It is disrespectful to put down gay people for being gay. You "disagree" with their very existence, as though they chose it, or somehow shouldn't be it to begin with. Your comments are backhanded. Replace "gay," with, "Jew" and perhaps you'll get it, but probably not.

Some people just expect people to teach them how to "tie their shoelaces", so to speak. No one really has time to sit you down and explain the very hatefulness of your comments. You either get it, or you don't.

This entire thread is putting forth the question, "do you think we take a person's rights away or not". All people should be treated equally.

Wait a minute, so what if you replace gay with Jew? If I am christian I dont agree with Judaism. If I am Muslim, I dont agree with catholicism or Buddism! If I am atheist I dont believe in neither one. Because those religions will be different to the ones I believe in. SO what is your point there? Its actually a good thing you brought that up because its the same thing. We live in a society that tolerates all religions. But we all know that each religion believes their is the one, and the rest arent true. It doesnt make them biggots now does it?

[Tom]

Originally posted by letmein
It is not their choice.

There is no answer to that and there are conflicting arguments. Psychologists think you learn it and its in your upbringing.

It is disrespectful to put down gay people for being gay.

If you read my posts properly you'll see I don't put people down for it. I don't have a problem with gay people whatsoever.

You "disagree" with their very existence, as though they chose it, or somehow shouldn't be it to begin with. Your comments are backhanded. Replace "gay," with, "Jew" and perhaps you'll get it, but probably not.

When did I say that? And the Jew thing is ridiculous. Again, whether its chosen or not is subjective. Being Jewish is not subjective.

Some people just expect people to teach them how to "tie their shoelaces", so to speak. No one really has time to sit you down and explain the very hatefulness of your comments. You either get it, or you don't.

Your comments are actually more hateful than mine IMO and display much more ignorance than even the most hated family in America, who, for your information, I strongly disagree with (before you try and paint a picture in your head of me as one of them).

This entire thread is putting forth the question, "do you think we take a person's rights away or not".

Why should a childs right to have a parent and role model of each sex be removed?

All people should be treated equally.

Correct, including people who don't have an opinion the same as what appears to be the majority.

[Wildcat!]

Originally posted by letmein

But you're not questioning whether Jews should have the same rights as Christians, correct?

Thats another story! YOu are calling Tom a Biggot becasue he said he doesnt agree with gay relationships. As far as adoption, well its a debate. Thats why a lot of states, countries, put it to referendum to see if it should be allowed. And you will find that its always about 50/50 as to people's opinions on it!

[letmein]

Originally posted by hannah.
No, and at no point have I said that gays shouldn't be allowed to adopt, I just think that at this stage, bearing in mind a lot of people's views on it, it's unfair on the children.

First of all, I wasn't referring to you. I was responding to, Tom.

Second, you are assuming that children are automatically going to be bullied. That's a "what if?" That's not enough to argue that gays should not be allowed to adopt children. The problem would be society's, not gay's. I could then ask, "Should a Jewish couple adopt a child who was raised Christian?" or, "Should a black couple adopt a white child?" You are allowing a slim minority's bigotry, dictate whether or not people should be allowed to adopt and have families. You've got unwanted children all over the place.

Third, when I said Jew, I meant ethnicity, something no one picks. I was not referring to religion.


"I also disagree with being gay as a whole. "


Replace "gay" with:

"I also disagree with being a Jew as a whole. "

or

"I also disagree with being black as a whole. "


No one chooses these things. That's the point.


And no, not everyone's opinions are equal. The Klu Klux Klan is by all means able to believe whatever they want to believe. But their viewpoints are in fact, wrong. They are not equal, as they are not opinions based on fact, only fear. There is no jury out when it comes to bigotry.

[Wildcat!]

Originally posted by letmein
"Should a Jewish couple adopt a child who was raised Christian?" or, "Should a black couple adopt a white child?" You are allowing a slim minority's bigotry, dictate whether or not people should be allowed to adopt and have families. You've got unwanted children all over the place.

Third, when I said Jew, I meant ethnicity, something no one picks. I was not referring to religion.


"I also disagree with being gay as a whole. "


Replace "gay" with:

"I also disagree with being a Jew as a whole. "

or

"I also disagree with being black as a whole. "


No one choose these things. That's the point.

Well a Jewish child woulndt be adopted by non jewish parents!
As for Jewish as ethnicity, well thats old thinking, going back to the nazis. becuse there are jews of a lot of different ethnic backgrounds. Granted the majority are of hebrew origins, there are some that are not, so its not an ethnicity. Just like Muslim is not all arabs!

[Tom]

Originally posted by letmein
First of all, I wasn't referring to you. I was responding to, Tom.

Second, you are assuming that children are automatically going to be bullied. That's a "what if?" That's not enough to argue that gays should not be allowed to adopt children. The problem would be society's, not gay's. I could then ask, "Should a Jewish couple adopt a child who was raised Christian?" or, "Should a black couple adopt a white child?" You are allowing a slim minority's bigotry, dictate whether or not people should be allowed to adopt and have families. You've got unwanted children all over the place.

Third, when I said Jew, I meant ethnicity, something no one picks. I was not referring to religion.


"I also disagree with being gay as a whole. "


Replace "gay" with:

"I also disagree with being a Jew as a whole. "

or

"I also disagree with being black as a whole. "


No one choose these things. That's the point.

Your whole argument relies on whether being gay is chosen or not. There is loads of evidence to suggest that it is in your upbringing and is decided within the first 2 or so years.

[hannah.]

Originally posted by letmein
The Klu Klux Klan is by all means able to believe whatever they want to believe. But their viewpoints are in fact, wrong.

you can't say that.
people have the right to believe in whatever they want to, it's when they act on it when it becomes a problem.
For example, people are totally entitled to believe that everyone should be Aryan, but it's when they act on this that it becomes a serious problem.
Tom and I, and a lot of others are just as entitled to believe that same sex adoptions are wrong as gays are entitled to adopt.

[Jen]

I agree with Gay people adopting...
I know people have concerns for the child, but two gay men or two gay women are perfectly capable of providing an enviornment to raise a child.
Those who question their ability are the people that should be ashamed.
Of course, this debate is very relevant to our society, I see no problem for the child or the parents.. if people weren't ignorant then there would be no controversy.

[Tom]

Originally posted by letmein
The Klu Klux Klan is by all means able to believe whatever they want to believe. But their viewpoints are in fact, wrong.

You think (think being the key word) they are MORALLY wrong. I disagree with them as well but you can't dismiss their views as being wrong as this being a fact.

Views are opinion based and subjective. My view that what the KKK did is wrong is just as valid as their view that they think what they did was right. Neither of us are right and wrong.

[hannah.]

Originally posted by JDIZZEL
Those who question their ability are the people that should be ashamed.

i'm not disputing their anyone's parenting abilities, I'm not even against it, I just feel that the children could be subjected to bullying, i mean ffs kids are being beaten up for wearing pink, i just think it's too early for our society to deal with

[Wildcat!]

Originally posted by JDIZZEL
I agree with Gay people adopting...
I know people have concerns for the child, but two gay men or two gay women are perfectly capable of providing an enviornment to raise a child.
Those who question their ability are the people that should be ashamed.
Of course, this debate is very relevant to our society, I see no problem for the child or the parents.. if people weren't ignorant then there would be no controversy.

Again, as much as I hae my reservations, I think I couldnt comletely decide, until I can hear fro children raised in that environment. That should be the best way to judge! But on the whole, I am sure its a 50/50 debate and its never gonna change, unless there is some definite proof that homosexuality is something youre born with! Until then a large portion of people will be against it!

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by Tom

Your whole argument relies on whether being gay is chosen or not. There is loads of evidence to suggest that it is in your upbringing and is decided within the first 2 or so years.

there is also loads of evidence that it is biological but you've ignored that, either way, anything determined as a 2 year old is not exactly a Choice

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by hannah.

i'm not disputing their anyone's parenting abilities, I'm not even against it, I just feel that the children could be subjected to bullying, i mean ffs kids are being beaten up for wearing pink, i just think it's too early for our society to deal with

People get bullied for all sorts of reasons doesnt mean they should hide themselves away in shame, its the bullies with the problem to be tackled not the other way round. If you want an equal society then people have to have the same rights.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by Tom

You think (think being the key word) they are MORALLY wrong. I disagree with them as well but you can't dismiss their views as being wrong as this being a fact.

Views are opinion based and subjective. My view that what the KKK did is wrong is just as valid as their view that they think what they did was right. Neither of us are right and wrong.

Well if we all went round not saying some things are wrong then we'd have allsorts of human rights abuses going on. Their view is not based on fact it is based on ignorance and fear. We live in a society that uses logic and reasoning to determine what is right and wrong, if you have no evidence to back up your beliefs then you are ignorant and in some cases a danger to humanity

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by Tom

I disagree with gay adoption. I also disagree with being gay as a whole. Does that make me a bad person with 1800s views?

(just to clarify I don't have a problem with gay people, its just being gay as a concept itself)

yes it does. being gay isnt a choice either

"A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding attitude or mindset. Bigot is often used as a pejorative term to describe a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices, especially when these views are either challenged, or proven to be false or not universally applicable or acceptable."

[Tom]

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!

Your whole argument relies on whether being gay is chosen or not. There is loads of evidence to suggest that it is in your upbringing and is decided within the first 2 or so years.

there is also loads of evidence that it is biological but you've ignored that, either way, anything determined as a 2 year old is not exactly a Choice [/quote]

I haven't ignored it, I'm just saying that the whole argument about the Jew thing rests on whether it is natural or if its learnt- neither for which there is conclusive evidence.

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!

Well if we all went round not saying some things are wrong then we'd have allsorts of human rights abuses going on. Their view is not based on fact it is based on ignorance and fear. We live in a society that uses logic and reasoning to determine what is right and wrong, if you have no evidence to back up your beliefs then you are ignorant and in some cases a danger to humanity

Thats not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying you cannot state your opinion as a fact.

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!

yes it does. being gay isnt a choice either

"A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding attitude or mindset. Bigot is often used as a pejorative term to describe a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices, especially when these views are either challenged, or proven to be false or not universally applicable or acceptable."

Clearly to draw the bigot card you haven't read my further posts. I'm not intolerant. I don't have a problem with gay people. I just don't approve of being gay

[NettoSuperstar!]

Well your prejudice is not based on any facts and make no mistake it is prejudice whether you go round bashing gays or not. Do you seriously think Gay people CHOOSE to be Gay, whether it is conditioning or biological, it starts way to early for there to be any choice about it! My opinion is based on evidence whether conclusive or not, there is evidence. Why do you have a dissaproving attitude towards Gay people? What evidence do you have to support that?

[Tom]

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Well your prejudice is not based on any facts and make no mistake it is prejudice whether you go round bashing gays or not. Do you seriously think Gay people CHOOSE to be Gay, whether it is conditioning or biological, it starts way to early for there to be any choice about it! My opinion is based on evidence whether conclusive or not, there is evidence. Why do you have a dissaproving attitude towards Gay people? What evidence do you have to support that?

I don't think they choose to be gay, I'm just not convinced you're born with it just as I'm not convinced its social conditioning.

My reasoning is that I come from quite a religious background and its just something I've always been told isn't right. Thats all. Its just something I can't really help. But as I say whether someone is or not doesn't bother me, its not my business to get involved with its up to them what they want to do with their lives. I'll still talk to gay people just as I would anyone else and it won't change my opinion of them (some gay people on here could probably back me up on that), its just the actual concept that I disagree with. But then again it doesn't affect me so I'm not too bothered about it.

I don't have anti-gay views if thats how I come across, I'm not actively campaigning for the banning of gay rights or anything like that

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by Tom

I don't think they choose to be gay, I'm just not convinced you're born with it just as I'm not convinced its social conditioning.

My reasoning is that I come from quite a religious background and its just something I've always been told isn't right. Thats all. Its just something I can't really help. But as I say whether someone is or not doesn't bother me, its not my business to get involved with its up to them what they want to do with their lives. I'll still talk to gay people just as I would anyone else and it won't change my opinion of them (some gay people on here could probably back me up on that), its just the actual concept that I disagree with. But then again it doesn't affect me so I'm not too bothered about it.

I don't have anti-gay views if thats how I come across, I'm not actively campaigning for the banning of gay rights or anything like that

No I didnt think you were at all lol. I do think your clinging onto an opinion against a lifestyle with no reason other than other people have said it. An outdated ideology from a different time and place says it, thats no reason to still hold that view.

[ange7]

Tom ... the problem is your being wishy washy and vague. It's all blurry and "shades of gray". You say you have nothing against gays but you think what they do is wrong and your against their lifestyle?. Is that what you think?... these arguments are mutually exclusive. Please just pick ONE... not both.

ps on topic ... roughly 1 in 10 people are gay ... statistic show that whether they are raised in a gay or a straight household the percentage is still the same. So that suggests that a child is equally likey of being gay when parented by straight parents or gay parent ie has no effect... it's genetic.
Tom your line

"Psychologists think you learn it and its in your upbringing."

is a lie ...