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fingers · 29-07-2010, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElProximo

This doesn't make sense unless I understand you mean to say 'glory groupies' are someone different from 'cult followers'?

Far from denying these videos they most certainly do post them on youtube.
Exactly.
I want you to think about that now. They post these proudly.

Do 'scam artists' trying to hide something do that?
Would a 'con-man' intending to 'act' one way but not tell anyone this other stuff be leaving his youtube channel active and full of vids?

What you are doing is giving more evidence that David does definitely believe in this stuff and he believes its real and what he is doing 'works'.

Your making that case when you admit that they don't hide any of this and even proudly display it.

And let me say it again - I wish they WERE ACTORS. That would be bad but not nearly as bad as a bunch of them who actually believe this is from God and carry on accordingly.

If you say so!

Shasown · 29-07-2010, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElProximo

This doesn't make sense unless I understand you mean to say 'glory groupies' are someone different from 'cult followers'?

Far from denying these videos they most certainly do post them on youtube.
Exactly.
I want you to think about that now. They post these proudly.

Do 'scam artists' trying to hide something do that?
Would a 'con-man' intending to 'act' one way but not tell anyone this other stuff be leaving his youtube channel active and full of vids?

What you are doing is giving more evidence that David does definitely believe in this stuff and he believes its real and what he is doing 'works'.

Your making that case when you admit that they don't hide any of this and even proudly display it.

And let me say it again - I wish they WERE ACTORS. That would be bad but not nearly as bad as a bunch of them who actually believe this is from God and carry on accordingly.

Waste of time El Proximo, logical rational thought will never overcome blind hatred and blinkered vision. Good post though.

housemate · 29-07-2010, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElProximo

This doesn't make sense unless I understand you mean to say 'glory groupies' are someone different from 'cult followers'?

Far from denying these videos they most certainly do post them on youtube.
Exactly.
I want you to think about that now. They post these proudly.

Do 'scam artists' trying to hide something do that?
Would a 'con-man' intending to 'act' one way but not tell anyone this other stuff be leaving his youtube channel active and full of vids?

What you are doing is giving more evidence that David does definitely believe in this stuff and he believes its real and what he is doing 'works'.

Your making that case when you admit that they don't hide any of this and even proudly display it.

And let me say it again - I wish they WERE ACTORS. That would be bad but not nearly as bad as a bunch of them who actually believe this is from God and carry on accordingly.

Yes they do because they live in a Country where tolerance is upheld. dave supporters, like some of those in this thread, afford them the 'gumtion' to advertise themselves on You Tube and make claims which your ordinary Joe Public will tut at or believe.. Lets face it, after the Blair/Iraq saga do you really think integrity still prevails?
I don't claim to know if Dave believes his nonsense but if he does, how is it that he breaks so many of the principles laid down by the very Book he preaches from? I don't think a Man with his supposed strength of Faith could bring himself to do those things. On that basis, in my opinion, he is a complete fraud!

Shasown · 29-07-2010, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by housemate

Yes they do because they live in a Country where tolerance is upheld. dave supporters, like some of those in this thread, afford them the 'gumtion' to advertise themselves on You Tube and make claims which your ordinary Joe Public will tut at or believe.. Lets face it, after the Blair/Iraq saga do you really think integrity still prevails?
I don't claim to know if Dave believes his nonsense but if he does, how is it that he breaks so many of the principles laid down by the very Book he preaches from? I don't think a Man with his supposed strength of Faith could bring himself to do those things. On that basis, in my opinion, he is a complete fraud!

I think its christianity in general you have problems understanding. Apparently Jesus wants us to try to be better people, he knows just like his dad knows that we are only human and will not always be good people.

However he forgives us those little transgressions, so long as we are sorry for them and try a little harder each time not to do them again.

Its not about being perfect, its about learning from your mistakes, once you realise the mistake in the first place, that is.

As for the bible itself, a lot of the Old Testament is left in to provide a basis for understanding the NT. Different schools of theologians interpret passages in different ways. Some even move with the times and accept a lot of the creation story as metaphorical as opposed to literal.

ElProximo · 29-07-2010, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by housemate

how is it that he breaks so many of the principles laid down by the very Book he preaches from? I don't think a Man with his supposed strength of Faith could bring himself to do those things. On that basis, in my opinion, he is a complete fraud!

You partly answer your own question there. It is because they break principles laid down in the very book they preach from that they can bring themselves to do those things.
It is because they find ways to misinterpret and just ignore some principles they feel free to carry on like this.

But look at it this way... 99.999% of Christians and non-Christians alike can look at the NT and be well aware that committing mass murder and then mass suicide is clearly antichristian,
yet,
almost 1000 people in a Jim Jones cult did that like it was the most sincerely committed truth they could find.
They were not being 'hypocrites'.
They were not 'con artists'.
They were not 'frauds'.
They were wrong. Deadly wrong. We might call it pure evil,
but,
they were not 'fakes'. They bet their life and the lives of those around them on it.

Let's hope David's cult doesn't go to the grape juice cocktails but the point is that they are wrong and even obviously wrong (to thinking people) but they are no frauds.
They believe it.

housemate · 29-07-2010, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElProximo

You partly answer your own question there. It is because they break principles laid down in the very book they preach from that they can bring themselves to do those things.
It is because they find ways to misinterpret and just ignore some principles they feel free to carry on like this.

But look at it this way... 99.999% of Christians and non-Christians alike can look at the NT and be well aware that committing mass murder and then mass suicide is clearly antichristian,
yet,
almost 1000 people in a Jim Jones cult did that like it was the most sincerely committed truth they could find.
They were not being 'hypocrites'.
They were not 'con artists'.
They were not 'frauds'.
They were wrong. Deadly wrong. We might call it pure evil,
but,
they were not 'fakes'. They bet their life and the lives of those around them on it.

Let's hope David's cult doesn't go to the grape juice cocktails but the point is that they are wrong and even obviously wrong (to thinking people) but they are no frauds.
They believe it.

I'm going to have a good long think about that so Thank you!! I have to say that I don't imagine the followers of these cults etc to be cynical or disingenuous, but when you look at the leaders (and henchmen).. Jones being a prime example, a true believer .. really? I don't think he was, I saw him as a charlatan, pretty much the same as Dave.

housemate · 29-07-2010, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasown

I think its christianity in general you have problems understanding. Apparently Jesus wants us to try to be better people, he knows just like his dad knows that we are only human and will not always be good people.

However he forgives us those little transgressions, so long as we are sorry for them and try a little harder each time not to do them again.

Its not about being perfect, its about learning from your mistakes, once you realise the mistake in the first place, that is.

As for the bible itself, a lot of the Old Testament is left in to provide a basis for understanding the NT. Different schools of theologians interpret passages in different ways. Some even move with the times and accept a lot of the creation story as metaphorical as opposed to literal.

I'm fully aware of that but we're not talking about a member of the congregation here, we're talking about a man who has been charged with the care and guidance of other, supposedly more fallible creatures like myself.
Are you saying that we should overlook the evidence on you tube or BB because Dave believes in his version of the Bible, he should not be judged by its founding rules?
He is supposed to set a good example as a Minister surely?

WOMBAI · 29-07-2010, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flamingGalah!

And you are the one trying to defend him to the death with evidence to back up your claims either! And any evidence we produce you simply shut your eyes & stick your fingers in your ears... You are a lost cause...

And please don't take a condesending tone about "grown ups" as your behaviour is far from mature...

The evidence is there for all to see, at least those that want to see it...

You haven't produced any evidence - that is the point!

flamingGalah! · 29-07-2010, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

You haven't produced any evidence - that is the point!

We have, you have chosen to ignore it or pretend it doesn't exist

I honestly think you must belong to a wacko cult yourself...

You like to swim in that great river called denial...

MariaLeFrink2 · 29-07-2010, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by housemate

Sorry to all those that have aready seen this but I hadn't, caught it on DS earlier today and am still sick to my stomach!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBkgd...eature=related

It's disgusting, isn't it?

WE NEED TO GET HIM OUT!!

WOMBAI · 29-07-2010, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flamingGalah!

We have, you have chosen to ignore it or pretend it doesn't exist

I honestly think you must belong to a wacko cult yourself...

You like to swim in that great river called denial...

What evidence - those vids that, incidentally, were not discovered hidden away in some secret drawer somewhere, but on public view for all to see - and are clearly open to interpretation! Is that your evidence? If that's the best you've got - it isn't me in denial!

And for the record, and I believe I have said this before, I am not at all religious, never have been - just not my cup of tea! But as long as people don't try and force their religious views on to me and mine - I have no problem with live and let live! I respect Dave's right to worship in any way he pleases, as long as he isn't harming anyone - and you certainly haven't proved to me, or anyone else, that he is!

I really don't know if you actually believe that - or you just don't like him and are using every tacky trick in the book to blacken his character!

Shasown · 29-07-2010, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by housemate

I'm fully aware of that but we're not talking about a member of the congregation here, we're talking about a man who has been charged with the care and guidance of other, supposedly more fallible creatures like myself.
Are you saying that we should overlook the evidence on you tube or BB because Dave believes in his version of the Bible, he should not be judged by its founding rules?
He is supposed to set a good example as a Minister surely?

No I am not saying ignore anything, I am saying view it with an open mind. Put things into perspective.

You mention he has been charged with the care and guidance of others, who charged him?

As for the evidence, I have yet to see any that he is in fact a minister of any sort, he may call himself one because in his mind he believes himself to be one, but to what church? By what authority? Probably in his eyes God gave him that authority.

I believe he uses the term Friar, as in brother to describe himself, its a very vague nomenclature. It could be self imposed.

As for being able to marry people, anyone can perform a marriage ceremony, that doesnt mean the marriage has any legal standing. He may or may not be able to marry people in the eyes of British or International Law.

Is he an Authorised Marriage Celebrant? Or does he simply carry out the ceremony in front of a person duly authorised to register a marriage? I cant really see him going to the bother and cost of acquiring a licence to do so from the local Superintendent Registrar.

I have also yet to see anything conclusive where he asks for payment for healing. Or even that he can cure cancers. Isnt the context of the words he uses something along the lines of we can cure it if it is Gods will?