[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by bobnot

A female called angus thats a strange one!
You still havent described how you personally would come up with a 100% system of securing a childs safety!

Social services do an amazing job and i dare say make a hell of a lot less mistakes in their job than you and people in your proffesion do whatever that may be im beginning to smell a privately educated person in the private sector here and of course they are perfect

Please enlighten us mere mortals how 100% perfection can be acquired have you never made one single mistake in your job? no i doubt it but that mistake doesnt make national news does it.

There is a town in Scotland called Angus. It doesn't necessarily have to correlate to gender. Pyramid doesn't evoke an automatic gender association - neither does Angus, but as I said earlier, I was under the impression from other posts, that Angus was female. (apols Angus58 if you aren't!!)

Privately educated person here (age 11 onwards, up to then, most certainly state schools), who works in a very privately owned sector - and has done for the vast majority of my 20 working years. I've also worked in various goverment depts as well as in the NHS - and a as far as the government depts are concerned, a lazier, shoddier type of workforce I have never encountered in my life.

No need for the superscillious tone. I'm quite entitled to my opinion, I'm quite entitled to validate my opinion by the reasons I have already given -so there is no need for you to make this personal. If my job involved an error which could result in the death of an young child, I'd most certainly ensure that I was beyond reproach every single step of the way.

I'll ask you again... how many red flags, warning lights, public expressions of concern, do you think they should have allowed to pass before taking any action? It appears very much that you think they were quite correct not to take action - giving that you don't seem to agree that in this case, that is has been handled terribly.

We aren't speaking of the services they provide overall in which they provide the attention that is needed - afterall, as I said, that is the very purpose, the very existence of the role of a social worker, it's the reason they are there. If they fail and at such levels as this: it is quite correct that they are brought into question. It is this particular section, those who deal with children who are at risk, that they know are at risk, that's the side of Social Services departments that I fail to be impressed with.

[billy123]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

There is a town in Scotland called Angus. It doesn't necessarily have to correlate to gender. Pyramid doesn't evoke an automatic gender association - neither does Angus, but as I said earlier, I was under the impression from other posts, that Angus was female. (apols Angus58 if you aren't!!)

Privately educated person here (age 11 onwards, up to then, most certainly state schools), who works in a very privately owned sector - and has done for the vast majority of my 20 working years. I've also worked in various goverment depts as well as in the NHS - and a as far as the government depts are concerned, a lazier, shoddier type of workforce I have never encountered in my life.

No need for the superscillious tone. I'm quite entitled to my opinion, I'm quite entitled to validate my opinion by the reasons I have already given -so there is no need for you to make this personal. If my job involved an error which could result in the death of an young child, I'd most certainly ensure that I was beyond reproach every single step of the way.

I'll ask you again... how many red flags, warning lights, public expressions of concern, do you think they should have allowed to pass before taking any action? It appears very much that you think they were quite correct not to take action - giving that you don't seem to agree that in this case, that is has been handled terribly.

We aren't speaking of the services they provide overall in which they provide the attention that is needed - afterall, as I said, that is the very purpose, the very existence of the role of a social worker, it's the reason they are there. If they fail and at such levels as this: it is quite correct that they are brought into question. It is this particular section, those who deal with children who are at risk, that they know are at risk, that's the side of Social Services departments that I fail to be impressed with.

Well firstly my as you would call it supercillious tone was recognized and that comment removed before you replied :P(but whilst you were replying i admit)
We arent going to agree on this.

Im not saying that social services are perfect who is?

Mistakes are inevitable that is the nature of any proffesion what matters isnt that a mistake was made it is whether anything is learnt from it.

If in this case the result was oh well we cant stop them all then i would be up in arms and abusing them for it but an investigation was launched and people were taken to task.
what more can be done nobody is perfect.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by bobnot

Well firstly my as you would call it supercillious tone was recognized and that comment removed before you replied :P(but whilst you were replying i admit)
We arent going to agree on this.

Im not saying that social services are perfect who is?

Mistakes are inevitable that is the nature of any proffesion what matters isnt that a mistake was made it is whether anything is learnt from it.

If in this case the result was oh well we cant stop them all then i would be up in arms and abusing them for it but an investigation was launched and people were taken to task.
what more can be done nobody is perfect.

Ach, these things happen with posts / replies overlapping and crossing with each other, no worries.

No one is perfect, but my point is more that when mistakes are made in this particular division of Social Services, the end result is of a far more dire consequence - therefore it's essential that they pay attention to the very obvious 'red flags' all over the place - warnings that a blind man could almost see - never mind specially trained, professionals in their specialised field - a field that they chose to enter, that they felt they could excel in, do good in.

My point is very clear: in this particular case - how much more notice did they need that all was not well. That's not failing to be perfect, that's failing to acknowledge and act upon the very basics of the job in hand - ignoring or not acting upn very clear, very obvious indicators, from many sources that this child's life was at risk - it wasn't one mistake, it was a catalogue of mistakes - by 4 different people who all had involvement in the case. If that isn't indicative that there is something is badly wrong and seriously failing, I don't know what is. Has this part of Soc Serv really learned anything since Baby P's case - given by what has gone on here with little Alex, it's clear the answer is a resounding No.

I agree, that we are not going to agree on this one!

[Angus]

Originally Posted by bobnot

Dumb sensationalist thread title its a horrible thing to have happened absolutely sickening but you lay the blame at the door of social services?!?! really? get a bloody grip man.
Social services do an amazing job they stop thousands of things like this happening every year but when something like this happens you post they "fail again" how often do you hear about the thousands of times they have succesfully stepped in and potentially saved a childs life? never and would you make a thread praising them for it? no would you hell.
A sense of perspective is whats needed Angus if you dont have one i hear this rag is read by such people

Not quite sure why you have adopted such an aggressive stance - but I'm getting increasingly used to it for having the audacity to hold an opposite opinion to some on here.

Firstly, I am not a man, and am puzzled as to why you would think someone's avatar should reflect their gender
Secondly, I found the link to the paper on the BBC site, so kindly don't make assumptions about my paper of choice. I could just as easily stereotype some of the morons on here as Guardian readers
Thirdly, there is absolutely zero excuse in this particular case for the Social Services concerned to have allowed this baby to die. These so called "professionals" undergo years of training and should be able to detect such glaring and obvious danger signs.
Fourthly, this is not an isolated case, and lessons don't seem to have been learned from previous tragic incidents.

Daily Telegraph
Timeline of social services failures: from Victoria Climbie to Baby P
Here is a timeline of children who died after failures by social services.

Victoria Climbie, whose death led to the creation of the database Photo: PA8:00AM GMT 26 Feb 2010
Victoria Climbie – died Feb 2000

Eight-year-old girl starves to death after prolonged abuse at hands of guardians in London. Social workers, police and NHS had failed to raise alarm.

Outcome: Lord Laming report advises complete overhaul of child protection policies. Most of his 108 recommendations become law in 2004 Children Act.


David Stocker – died August 2001

Nine-year-old boy from Romford, Essex killed by overdose of salt fed him by mother, who is jailed for five years. Care workers had suspected she planned to do him harm.

Outcome: Independent review catalogues more than 25 failings by social services, police and Great Ormond Street hospital.


Trae-Bleu Layne – died October 2006

Three-year-old girl from Reading dies after overdosing on mother's methadone.

Outcome: Report finds no action taken to remove child from home despite domestic violence reports and warnings from neighbours. Reading council pledges to improve systems.


Baby P (Peter Connelly) – died August 2007

Endures agonising death in home shared by mother, her boyfriend and lodger in Haringey, north London. The 17-month-old suffers 50 injuries including broken back, allegedly missed by doctor.

Outcome: Head of children's services at Haringey council and four colleagues sacked. Series of damning inquiries reveal 60 missed opportunities to save Baby P's life. New report by Lord Laming concludes his Climbie reforms not widely implemented.


Demi Leigh Mahon – died July 2008

Two year-old girl beaten to death by teenage babysitter in Manchester, after social services ignore warnings about unreliability of drug-addict mother.

Outcome: Serious case review finds concerns of relatives and neighbours not followed up properly.



No-one disputes that Social Services in general provide a useful and life saving service, but there is absolutely NO excuse for any of these murdered children to have been left in the care of the people who eventually killed them. If you are suggesting that the occasional "mistake" (a child's death!) is just collateral damage, I'm afraid I find that totally unacceptable, and I have no need to apologise to you or anyone else for holding that opinion.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by angus58

Not quite sure why you have adopted such an aggressive stance - but I'm getting increasingly used to it for having the audacity to hold an opposite opinion to some on here.

Firstly, I am not a man, and am puzzled as to why you would think someone's avatar should reflect their gender

. If you are suggesting that the occasional "mistake" (a child's death!) is just collateral damage, I'm afraid I find that totally unacceptable, and I have no need to apologise to you or anyone else for holding that opinion.

I was sure you were female, so thanks for clarifying.

Your last part sums up precisely what I wasn't able to articulate quite so finely.