[letmein]

It's looking more and more that way. Apparently, even more ties between Cameron and NOTW is about to come out. What do you think?

[joeysteele]

I don't think it will likely bring him down,but if he does not set up very soon a body to look into this as well as the Police, and if he does not make that body more impartial with a judge at its head then he is likely to be seen as helping hide something.

His friend Coulson is it's reported being arrested tomorrow(?), if things come to light as to his involvement in anything untoward in this then Camerons judgement and capability will be well and truly questioned. He will be damaged badly by that.

It may not actually bring Cameron down but this news is going to run likely for the next year to 2 years at least so it will virtually I think see Cameron, if he stays PM, getting booted out at the next election in 3 years 9 months time.

[Shaun]

He's being too tentative to dish out punishments, he clearly has some hidden interests. Ho hum.

[Omah]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I don't think it will likely bring him down,but if he does not set up very soon a body to look into this as well as the Police, and if he does not make that body more impartial with a judge at its head then he is likely to be seen as helping hide something.

His friend Coulson is it's reported being arrested tomorrow(?), if things come to light as to his involvement in anything untoward in this then Camerons judgement and capability will be well and truly questioned. He will be damaged badly by that.

It may not actually bring Cameron down but this news is going to run likely for the next year to 2 years at least so it will virtually I think see Cameron, if he stays PM, getting booted out at the next election in 3 years 9 months time.

Yeah, I agree - Cameron's too well ensonced to be booted at the moment ..... but any more crises or disasters will see him ditched by his party sooner rather than later .....

[joeysteele]

It is the sort of thing that can bring a Govt down though,as I said on another thread, it will depend on the Lib Dems, this may be something they can use to get out of the coalition.

This scandal is going to run for ages so anything can happen in politics.Cameron will be very damaged by it anyway because of Andy Coulson and also a great many Conservative MPs see Cameron as a loser anyway by failing to win an overall majority in an election that was the easiest ever for an opposition to win.

[Lewis.]

For people that don't really read into all of the events, a lot of then won't know of any kind of connection anyway. But for those that do read into the stories a little it may certainly be his downfall - it just depends on how many people can see the link and what they know about the background of the story.

[Zippy]

No.

[arista]

No.

[Marc]

Nah I doubt it... the hatred for him might come next elections!

[joeysteele]

A lot will depend on the Lib Dems as I said, they are effectively ruled by their party executive/Members at conference,if the members are up in arms on this and if revelations as to Coulson are bad, then Cameron's connection with him will really sicken the voters further.

The Lib Dems, should there be any rise in their fortunes in polls,by distancing themselves from this scandal,may well jump ship citing this as the reason.
That would likely mean a general election,in which,no way could the Conservatives ever win an overall majority even without this scandal, if Cameron is seen as having to be dragged kicking and screaming to address the issues arising then that could happen.

Many Tory MPs would like to see Cameron replaced anyway. I would imagine there are a fair few very nervous MPs at present, Cameron being one of the main ones because of his strong connection to Andy Coulson,if its proven he lied to the select committee, Cameron's judgement is blown to pieces completely.

[joeysteele]

Watching Cameron on Sky news this morning though, with a group of people some of whom are Conservative voters,even they found him very unconvincing in his answers and beleive now that even he may have known a lot more.

[Lewis.]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Watching Cameron on Sky news this morning though, with a group of people some of whom are Conservative voters,even they found him very unconvincing in his answers and beleive now that even he may have known a lot more.

Wouldn't surprise me really, I expect an awful lot of these kinds of scandals are covered up by the government.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Lewis.

Wouldn't surprise me really, I expect an awful lot of these kinds of scandals are covered up by the government.

Well he admitted working (very closely) with Coulson for 4 years, that he became a good friend, that they had discussed the issues of what had seemingly happened at the News of the World in the past, that he had given him a 2nd chance,(if he had done nothing really wrong why was it termed a 2nd chance), that he had served the Country and the Tory party well in his duties,(that could mean anything).

Then he said he had been in close contact with Coulson since his resignation but oddly he hasn't been in the last few weeks.
A very unconvincing performance and one that opens up far more questions than the very few he did answer to any satisfaction.

Cameron looks in a spot of bother on this one depending on what happens and transpires with Andy Coulson, If Coulson is deemed to have lied to the PM, lied to the Country, has known of payments to the Police etc, then Cameron is not just at fault for his judgement but for also even speaking for him,even today, in any kind of glowing terminology.

[Omah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14078781

"mea culpa, mea culpa, mea máxima culpa"

That's latin for "I'm talking bo11ox to save my ass" .....

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Omah

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14078781

"mea culpa, mea culpa, mea máxima culpa"

That's latin for "I'm talking bo11ox to save my ass" .....

They have now arrested Coulson in connection with corruption this morning so depending on the outcome of that, I would think the PM is a rather nervous person today now.

[Livia]

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who will be focusing attention on David Cameron over this issue. I say unfortunately because it is deflecting the attention from those who are actually to blame.

Will this be the end of Cameron? No, I don't think so. If the Iraq Inquiry didn't bring down the Labour Party, if widespread public protest against war in Iraq didn't stop Blair taking this country into a fruitless conflict, on a lie and against the wishes of the very people he was supposed to be representing, then those who are hoping this will finish Cameron are being a little optimistic.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who will be focusing attention on David Cameron over this issue. I say unfortunately because it is deflecting the attention from those who are actually to blame.

Will this be the end of Cameron? No, I don't think so. If the Iraq Inquiry didn't bring down the Labour Party, if widespread public protest against war in Iraq didn't stop Blair taking this country into a fruitless conflict, on a lie and against the wishes of the very people he was supposed to be representing, then those who are hoping this will finish Cameron are being a little optimistic.

Naturally as ever, I will bow to your greater knowledge Livia, you know I always hold what you say in the highest regard as to politics.

I do think there is a difference with this scandal,as opposed to the Irag inquiry though.
Unfortunately for him,David Cameron failed to get an overall majority at the election,unlike Blair and Brown to a degree,he is in an already vulnerable situation as to Westminster.

He also has as his lifeboat at present, the volatile, highly unpredictable and also very untrustworthy Lib Dems,who, were they to be forced to really distance themselves by their party's executive at their conference from this scandal and therefore the coalition would leave him literally up the creek without a paddle.

I hope it doesn't bring him down although I do think some policies need changing and dramatically,especially as to the NHS. however he will need to be seen as taking the press on now, not playing to them,he hasn't come across as doing that or that he's even willing to thus far.

Some things stick with PMs, Blair the teflon Tony, seemed like he could get away with anything, Brown just had to open his mouth and few agreed with much he said and he was ridiculed for it.

I do know that many in the Tory party are still smouldering at Cameron for failing to get an overall majority and having to cosy up to the Lib Dems, so this may be the thing even they use to get to him too.
I think a very uncertain future hangs over the coalition and Cameron now and if this goes on as it's predicted to for possibly years then he may not be able to shake it off.

Both Conservative and Labour govts of the past should have had as good a relationship with the media as was possible, but not do as the Conservatives regularly have and also what Tony Blair did too fully embrace the likes of the Murdoch empire at least.
Most of the former Labour govt has some questions to answer on this one too.

I don't know, I am a novice at politics,you are far better at explaining and understanding the ways of Govt than I am Livia but listening to people around me recently,particularly today,even Conservative supporters, they are not convinced Cameron has his finger on the pulse of this one and if it really comes out that dead servicemens families have had phones hacked too then they think Cameron's days are numbered because few see him winning the next election either.

Some things become really toxic in politics, at the moment that is likely to become Andy Coulson (depending on what comes out eventually).
Cameron's association with him may be too much to dismiss in the future and could be his downfall.
So much still to run on this issue, I think the Cameron led govt could be in trouble.

[Livia]

Hey Joey...

It's interesting to hear what you think, even though I don't agree with all of it. For instance, you say Conservatives are smouldering at Cameron for failing to get an overall majority like Blair or Brown. Actually, Brown never won an election. He was a completely unelected PM.

It's true that some Tory policies to have to change, and Cameron has shown himself to be willing to do a u-turn in the face of public opposition. Of course he is criticised for u-turns just as he would be criticised if he were unwilling to do a u-turn. It's the nature of the beast; you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

Whatever David Cameron's involvement with Andy Coulson, he is not responsible for the hacking of people's phones. It seems to me that to make David Cameron a scapegoat in this sordid affair is deflecting the blame from the people responsible and I wonder whether the energy that's being put into slagging the Tories could be more fruitful it it were directed elsewhere.

Always interesting to hear your take on things, joey.

[joeysteele]

Hello Livia too, bad punctuation on my part, I meant that Cameron failed to get an overall majority at the election, so unlike Blair and Brown, he is in a more vulnerable position as when they were both PMs they had overall majorities in Parliament.

Brown never won anything did he, except his own seat,(bad attempt at a joke that).

I also agree with you that Cameron does change policy and although I wish he would get it near right in the first place I agree it's good to have a PM who is prepeared to backtrack and change or abolish even some policy proven to be bad or unworkable.

I don't blame Cameron for the hacking, but he must be seen to be with no holds barred, going for sorting this out.
I am glad he today has said there will an inquiry headed by a Judge but it seems he has had to be dragged to that position by again media and other sources saying that was the only right way to go.
The fact he wouldn't even say that was likely at PMQs just the day before leaves him open to being seen as still cosying up to the press.

For instance, today, I was chatting to some people, they said he wouldn't give a gurantee early yesterday because he was still a likely close friend of Rebekah Brookes and the News of the World but once it was known the News of the World was to be shut down and also that Coulson was to be arrested today, he then gives that assurance.

People will rightly or wrongly see that as his not having grasped this issue by the throat yet or making sure he puts old loyalties aside and still acts with his eye on the media.

I too think it's wrong to just hammer the Conservatives on this, Labour cosied up the the Murdoch empire while the Sun etc supported Tony Blair.
This hacking issue began when they were in Govt,they did nothing to address it or deal with the press while in power.
However like the expenses scandal, Brown was PM when that broke and Labour in part paid the price for being the Govt. at the time all was revealed, now the Conservatives are in power and again rightly or wrongly this issue will be seen as a scandal in their time in office.

I actually agree with just about all you said in your post and your next post too.
The thread asks though, will this scandal bring down Cameron, I personally hope it doesn't but I do believe as it runs and runs that it could and I can see the Lib Dems running scared as this issue continues to run too.

Very often it seems PMs and Govts get the blame for things that are not wholly or sometimes in part even their fault but the mud stays with them and they pay the price for them.

[arista]

Good posts Joey


Brookes is no longer in charge.

That Paper did some good as well
I am buying it on sunday for the last one.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

Good posts Joey


Brookes is no longer in charge.

That Paper did some good as well
I am buying it on sunday for the last one.

Wow, thank you arista,I consider your endorsement praise indeed.

[bananarama]

Originally Posted by letmein

It's looking more and more that way. Apparently, even more ties between Cameron and NOTW is about to come out. What do you think?

Wishful thinking I am afraid........Rodents are good at surviving

[joeysteele]

I don't know as I said before on this thread, Cameron is being seen by many as dragging his heels on this one,even people who cannot stand Ed Miliband are saying he is saying the right things.

The Conservative party has rumblings in it against Cameron, they are worried about this one,they know only too well how scandals destroyed them in 1997.
I think Cameron has a hard road ahead unless he grasps the whole thing and ensures that Murdoch's bid for full control of BSkyB is blocked for the time being, that he gets these inquiries up and running faster than he seems to want to and that he really starts to massively distance himself from the Murdoch papers and empire.

The Lib Dems, with their itchy feet, could well be crucial too in whether Cameron rides out the storm that's brewing.
So much still to be made known, Police investigations seen to be at best a farce, it's not a good time to be seen as a friend of the Murdochs.

A lot of people and growing by the day, I have spoken to or know of, are not impressed at all with Cameron's response to this issue and if Coulson is in really deep trouble then Cameron has a very hard road ahead indeed.

He is still not high in the polls, barely where he was at best in 2010 at the election,the Conservative backbenchers and the 1922 committee will not be impressed if this scandal seems to take them down further.They will blame Cameron for that.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I don't know as I said before on this thread, Cameron is being seen by many as dragging his heels on this one,even people who cannot stand Ed Miliband are saying he is saying the right things.The Conservative party has rumblings in it against Cameron, they are worried about this one,they know only too well how scandals destroyed them in 1997.
I think Cameron has a hard road ahead unless he grasps the whole thing and ensures that Murdoch's bid for full control of BSkyB is blocked for the time being, that he gets these inquiries up and running faster than he seems to want to and that he really starts to massively distance himself from the Murdoch papers and empire.

The Lib Dems, with their itchy feet, could well be crucial too in whether Cameron rides out the storm that's brewing.
So much still to be made known, Police investigations seen to be at best a farce, it's not a good time to be seen as a friend of the Murdochs.

A lot of people and growing by the day, I have spoken to or know of, are not impressed at all with Cameron's response to this issue and if Coulson is in really deep trouble then Cameron has a very hard road ahead indeed.

He is still not high in the polls, barely where he was at best in 2010 at the election,the Conservative backbenchers and the 1922 committee will not be impressed if this scandal seems to take them down further.They will blame Cameron for that.

Of course Ed Miliband is saying all the right things, he is not under the same pressure as Cameron, the NOTW situation is a gift to him, he'll milk it dry, talk is easy to him he doesn't have to put it into action.

Yes, the public want to see distance between Murdoch and Cameron, but that isn't going to be that simple, Cameron has inherited this relationship with the Murdoch that goes way back, he didn't suddenly start it and it's going to take time to create that distance and Murdoch has such power, of course Cameron will be nervous about how damaging it will all be for him to break off the relationship. This is just another mess that Cameron has inherited and has the nightmare of trying to clean up. As someone has posted, he's damned either way.

You're right Joey, he's still not high in the polls, that's why this will be used as a weapon to bring him down further. But if it wasn't this it would have been something else, no one seems to want him to suceed, so he's not really going to be given a chance.

As Livia said, this is just diverting from the actual situation and the real people responsible. David Cameron is just an easy target, and if the focus is on him, the problem will never get solved

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by rhino

Of course Ed Miliband is saying all the right things, he is not under the same pressure as Cameron, the NOTW situation is a gift to him, he'll milk it dry, talk is easy to him he doesn't have to put it into action.

Yes, the public want to see distance between Murdoch and Cameron, but that isn't going to be that simple, Cameron has inherited this relationship with the Murdoch that goes way back, he didn't suddenly start it and it's going to take time to create that distance and Murdoch has such power, of course Cameron will be nervous about how damaging it will all be for him to break off the relationship. This is just another mess that Cameron has inherited and has the nightmare of trying to clean up. As someone has posted, he's damned either way.

You're right Joey, he's still not high in the polls, that's why this will be used as a weapon to bring him down further. But if it wasn't this it would have been something else, no one seems to want him to suceed, so he's not really going to be given a chance.

As Livia said, this is just diverting from the actual situation and the real people responsible. David Cameron is just an easy target, and if the focus is on him, the problem will never get solved

I am absolutely no fan of Ed Miliband rhino, but people are listening to him on this issue,rightly or wrongly.
Cameron should have had the foresight, he is the PM after all,to ensure he was the one seen to be taking the initiative,not allowing Miliband to gather in so much ammunition.


As I said above, Cameron is the PM now, he has to distance himself from the Murdoch empire with credibility,inherited or not, it's something he should have done now, but need to do instantly.He is the PM, watching old newsreel back, I bet Margaret Thatcher would never have got caught out like this.

The expenses scandal was an issue that Brown was sort of left to clean up and do something about, few believe he did or has, he paid the (in part) price for that with a drumming at the ballot box,this issue could well turn into Camerons equivalent of that scandal and he isn't seen to be doing much at all, being made to drag his heels to every thing that needs to be done.

The poll rating is the main one though, there are many disgruntled voices in the Conservative party who are still asking how on earth did Cameron not win an overall majority in the easiest election ever for an opposition party to win,with a reckless Labour govt in deep trouble and a PM in Brown who had become a standing joke.
The fact that the Conservatives only polled 36% in the election and have rarely been above that since in the polls,is further damage to Cameron, this scandal and his at best only fair responses to the issues as yet may take his poll ratings down from low to even lower and that will be seen as massive failure by the Conservative party.

I feel sorry for Cameron, he has the deficit to deal with, the economy is still in poor shape,the recovery still extremely fragile, inflation higher, he has the added noose of Nick Clegg and his band of two faced deceivers around his neck, yapping like ankle biters all the time and now this scandal.

All the more reason to take full and assertive control, put all old loyalties aside and be the PM not like an assistant who has to be led by others to do and say the right things 'eventually'.
Failure to do so, will just continue to fuel the negatives as to his judgement,his reasons and moreso his competence.

He is the PM of the UK and sadly on issues like this all eyes and ears are on him,by having to be dragged near kicking and screaming to do anything he unfortunately makes himself an easy target for those who would bring him down, even worse for him is that many in his party have wanted that since he failed to get an overall majority and has then had to cosy up to the Lib Dems to be able to govern at all.

Had he not been able to get their support, he would have been gone a short time after the election.