[Stu]

I appreciate that.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Stu

That data I recall was a single link to a single study. I don't play link trading games. It's a long, frivolous exercise in futility. I enjoy engaging with someone who can actually talk. People who are educated enough on a subject to actually post themselves. I made lots of long, long arguments that you completely avoided or thought you could somehow magically make disappear by lazily Googling a single study on the subject. A study which my posts before that addressed in detail. You failed to adequately respond to any of it.

Half baked pseudoscience? You're damn right I'm claiming intellectual superiority over you. I've shot better fish in bigger barrels.

It was several studies on the topic actually, as it is pointed out regularly my opinion is invalid as I am not a professional in the subject.
With respect stu neither are you.
You can begin with the insults if you wish it does not change my position, neither does it make your points anymore valid.
Do you have an opinion on the discussion here?

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It was several studies on the topic actually, as it is pointed out regularly my opinion is invalid as I am not a professional in the subject.
With respect stu neither are you.
You can begin with the insults if you wish it does not change my position, neither does it make your points anymore valid.
Do you have an opinion on the discussion here?

Of course I do. I posted plenty about it already.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It was several studies on the topic actually, as it is pointed out regularly my opinion is invalid as I am not a professional in the subject.
With respect stu neither are you.
You can begin with the insults if you wish it does not change my position, neither does it make your points anymore valid.
Do you have an opinion on the discussion here?

To be fair, you don't need to be a professional to realise that the current drug laws are simply not working and people have referred you countless times to case studies, such as Amsterdam and Portugal and it seems to be working over there.

If you genuinely support a system where people are put behind bars for doing what they want with themselves, then you really do have absolutely no knowledge about the topic and just believing what the biased media tells you. How about putting that aside for a moment and doing your own research without putting a spin on it?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Redway

To be fair, you don't need to be a professional to realise that the current drug laws are simply not working and people have referred you countless times to case studies, such as Amsterdam and Portugal and it seems to be working over there.

If you genuinely support a system where people are put behind bars for doing what they want with themselves, then you really do have absolutely no knowledge about the topic and just believing what the biased media tells you. How about putting that aside for a moment and doing your own research without putting a spin on it?

Please stop, I don't wish to be drawn into another debate on my opinion on drug laws in the UK, US or Bali thankyou.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

The amount she smuggled isn't really the issue, the fact she is going to be murdered for doing it appalls me. We stopped executing convicted murderers in the 1960's but this country thinks its ok to execute someone who has not killed anyone.

Hopefully she will get the sentence commuted to a lengthy prison term.

Unfortunately that is that country's law system. Not that I agree with it, but if you go into a country that has that as punishment and commit a crime that can carry that sentence then that is your own fualt.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..Londsay Sandiford is a victim in this as well..the lives of her children were threatened, Julian Ponder, who was said to be the 'mastermind' was sentenced to 6 years imprisonment and the recommended sentence for her was 15 years..the judge gave the death penalty because he didn't want Bali's tourist image damaged..that was the reason he gave...it had nothing to do with concern for these drugs on the street...

..to execute her will achieve nothing as there will also be another 'victim' like her and is barbaric in the extreme..a 15 year term in a Bali prison, is sufficient to 'teach' anyone a lesson, Lindsay herself and anyone else in the future...

Well said, yes I agree the execution of this mother is a purely politically motivated event. She is being sacrificed on the altar of political correctness and good tourist ratings. The punishment in this instance far exceeds the crime and should not be tolerated by any modern just society..!!!

I'm pretty sure she will get this sentence commuted to a prison sentence but the original death sentence should never have been passed...!!

[Ammi]

.... Anders Behring Breivik was sentenced to 21 years imprisonment for mercilessly slaughtering 77 people, and I know that different countries have their own penalties but it doesn’t make them right or ‘just’..justice isn't being served here, only an example being made......and just as they have made their judgement, then so will the rest of the world at Bali and their inhumanity....it seems that civilisation hasn’t moved on at all in that ‘beautiful’ tourist spot....

....while the drug barons will still get their drugs out on the street...there will always be another 'Lindsay'....they're very disposable....

[Nedusa]

I know it's hard to appreciate the massive differences between the two countries ie Bali and Norway. To kill no one and get the death penalty versus killing over 70 people and NOT getting the death penalty.... What does this say about either country,,?

[Sticks]

Bali has drawn a line in the sand about drugs.

I believe this drug smuggler WILL be executed, to send a clear message out. My sympathies are with those blighted by drug related crimes. Where I live I have come across abandoned hypodermic needles, where children could have been.

As for Norway, that is a different subject for a different thread, so please do not hijack this thread.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Sticks

Bali has drawn a line in the sand about drugs.

I believe this drug smuggler WILL be executed, to send a clear message out. My sympathies are with those blighted by drug related crimes. Where I live I have come across abandoned hypodermic needles, where children could have been.

As for Norway, that is a different subject for a different thread, so please do not hijack this thread.

I agree the Norwegian mass murder is another subject for another thread, however it does serve to highlight the vast injustice that exists in putting death penalty tariffs on crimes which do not involve the taking of life.

[Sticks]

But drugs do take lives

Some drugs kill the users, in the late 1990's somebody died of an overdose in a flat on the floor below mine, and like many the police interviewed me over a suspicious death. (I did not know the occupants of the flat)

We here tales of pensioners left for dead, by junkies on a high looking for money for their next fix.

People are killed due to those driving under the influence of drugs.

Drugs shorten lives

[Nedusa]

Drugs like Guns don't kill people, people kill people. If and when this mother is executed she will be killed by a group of people.

Smuggling drugs from point A to point B does not kill anyone . To execute someone because they increase the chances further down the line of someone overdosing on a drug or someone robbing someone to get money to buy a drug, is a horrendous over reaction and results in a "taking a life to possibly save a life".

There is now and never will be any justification for executing someone because their actions may or may not lead to someone further down the line overdosing on a drug.

By all means give them long prison sentences but imposing a death sentence on them is utterly ridiculous ....!!!!

Originally Posted by Sticks

Bali has drawn a line in the sand about drugs.

I believe this drug smuggler WILL be executed, to send a clear message out. My sympathies are with those blighted by drug related crimes. Where I live I have come across abandoned hypodermic needles, where children could have been.

As for Norway, that is a different subject for a different thread, so please do not hijack this thread.

The thing that you continually ignore, when using your "clear example/send a message" argument, is that it fails. If you are desperate enough to smuggle drugs, the death penalty is not of great concern. Especially when a gang are threatening your family.

Using your logic, as soon as the first person in history was killed for smuggling drugs, then that should have been the end to all smuggling. Otherwise the death penalty is futile.

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Drugs like Guns don't kill people, people kill people. If and when this mother is executed she will be killed by a group of people.

Smuggling drugs from point A to point B does not kill anyone . To execute someone because they increase the chances further down the line of someone overdosing on a drug or someone robbing someone to get money to buy a drug, is a horrendous over reaction and results in a "taking a life to possibly save a life".

There is now and never will be any justification for executing someone because their actions may or may not lead to someone further down the line overdosing on a drug.

By all means give them long prison sentences but imposing a death sentence on them is utterly ridiculous ....!!!!

Drugs are nothing like guns. Drugs are a civil liberties issue, but no one should have the right to own a weapon of mass destruction.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Drugs like Guns don't kill people, people kill people. If and when this mother is executed she will be killed by a group of people.

Smuggling drugs from point A to point B does not kill anyone . To execute someone because they increase the chances further down the line of someone overdosing on a drug or someone robbing someone to get money to buy a drug, is a horrendous over reaction and results in a "taking a life to possibly save a life".

There is now and never will be any justification for executing someone because their actions may or may not lead to someone further down the line overdosing on a drug.

By all means give them long prison sentences but imposing a death sentence on them is utterly ridiculous ....!!!!

In the war against drugs (and yes it is a war) you have a chain of command, from the top down there are those who make it so that these substances reach our streets in whatever form, cut with whatever they choose.
This woman was one link in this chain, a weak link and one as said easily replaced.
The message now is hitting home for those who were thinking it is either an easy way to earn money, or a way to resolve serious threats to loved ones.

[Stu]

No, it's not hitting home. The drug war is receding literally on a year by year basis. Bali or not.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Stu

No, it's not hitting home. The drug war is receding literally on a year by year basis. Bali or not.

Where is your evidence to support this?

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Where is your evidence to support this?

Plenty of Western countries are in the process of adopting or have adopted more progressive decriminalization/legalization based approaches to drug policy. The various grassroot movements around the world to liberalize drug laws are the loudest and most prominent they've ever been. Viral videos with everyone from respected scientists and government agents right down to cultural figures like Richard Branson and Morgan Freeman are calling for a loosening of the drug laws and are being seen by millions of people on the internet. The governments own former chair for the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs has set up an independent research body and is calling for a relaxing of drug laws. Two U.S. states have fully legalized personal possession of Cannabis with more states to follow. Comedians and actors are talking openly about the reverential, eye opening experiences they've had with LSD and DMT. Responsible recreational drug use is at it's most accepted, understood point in the prohibition age of human history.

It's all around you and it's growing every day. It's called a paradigm shift. Even the most ardent prohibitionists who are actually well read on this topic would have to begrudgingly agree that prohibition is slowly shedding it's skin.

It's a war on some people who use some drugs and it can't be won.

[Sticks]

Even the Dutch have begun to see the light and are clamping down, sort of

(See here from the BBC)

The famous cannabis-selling coffee shops of the Netherlands are facing new tighter restrictions.

The Dutch government is reclassifying high-strength cannabis to put it in the same category as hard drugs.

It says the amount of the main active chemical in the drug, THC, has gone up, making it far more potent than a generation ago.

It means the coffee shops will be forced to take the popular, high-strength varieties off their shelves.

Dutch politicians say high-strength cannabis, known as "skunk", is more dangerous than it was before.

In the future, anything containing more than 15% THC will be treated the same way as hard drugs, such as cocaine and ecstasy....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Stu

Plenty of Western countries are in the process of adopting or have adopted more progressive decriminalization/legalization based approaches to drug policy. The various grassroot movements around the world to liberalize drug laws are the loudest and most prominent they've ever been. Viral videos with everyone from respected scientists and government agents right down to cultural figures like Richard Branson and Morgan Freeman are calling for a loosening of the drug laws and are being seen by millions of people on the internet. The governments own former chair for the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs has set up an independent research body and is calling for a relaxing of drug laws. Two U.S. states have fully legalized personal possession of Cannabis with more states to follow. Comedians and actors are talking openly about the reverential, eye opening experiences they've had with LSD and DMT. Responsible recreational drug use is at it's most accepted, understood point in the prohibition age of human history.

It's all around you and it's growing every day. It's called a paradigm shift. Even the most ardent prohibitionists who are actually well read on this topic would have to begrudgingly agree that prohibition is slowly shedding it's skin.

It's a war on some people who use some drugs and it can't be won.

You are fixated, this is not an issue relating to the US or cannabis.
You made a statement that said that the war on drugs was being won and figures for drug smuggling and or related crime was dropping...Where is your evidence?
Not from the US or Bali or anywhere else, here in the UK.

[Stu]

The story is two years old and any measure has yet to come into effect, much like how the proposals banning tourists from entering coffee shops were largely ignored.

Not that it is the most unreasonable suggestion in the world. I can live without 15%> THC Cannabis. The bigger problem comes from the fact that the Dutch model still does not represent true marketplace legality despite it's cliched international reputation. Cannabis is simply tolerated there. The cultivation of it is still forced into a clandestine cul de sac where the supply is dictated by often unscrupulous individuals looking to profit. It has resulted I believe in violence in some of the smaller towns in the Netherlands where outlaw suppliers wanted to be the ones to supply the coffee shops in the area and started popping each other off.

More ill effects of prohibition. There are plenty more countries in Europe that have more relaxed drug laws that people don't hear as much about. And plenty more to come. If anything the Dutch are going to fall behind. They have an incredibly outdated model.

Onwards and upwards goes the cause.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You made a statement that said that the war on drugs was being won and figures for drug smuggling and or related crime was dropping

No I didn't. I said that the Western world is slowly pulling away from drug prohibition and more and more countries are adopting more decriminalization/legalization based approaches. I alluded to the fact that culturally recreational drug use is more open and accepted than ever and that more and more people in prominent positions of power are coming out of the closet in support of a radical rethink of drug policy.

This is all factual. I never once said figures for smuggling and crime were dropping. And I never once claimed my arguments were solely based in the country that you live in.

Read more careful and think for half a second longer. It will save you and more importantly me a lot of trouble. Or you could just do that thing where you give up and claim you're not bothered by it again. Because this really is not working out for you.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Stu

No I didn't. I said that the Western world is slowly pulling away from drug prohibition and more and more countries are adopting more decriminalization/legalization based approaches. I alluded to the fact that culturally recreational drug use is more open and accepted than ever and that more and more people in prominent positions of power are coming out of the closet in support of a radical rethink of drug policy.

This is all factual. I never once said figures for smuggling and crime were dropping. And I never once claimed my arguments were solely based in the country that you live in.

Read more careful and think for half a second longer. It will save you and more importantly me a lot of trouble. Or you could just do that thing where you give up and claim you're not bothered by it again. Because this really is not working out for you.

Stop getting personal, these are your words..
''No, it's not hitting home. The drug war is receding literally on a year by year basis.''

Not here in the UK it isn't, what the rest the world do is up to them as seen in this case.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Stop getting personal, these are your words..
''No, it's not hitting home. The drug war is receding literally on a year by year basis.''

Not here in the UK it isn't, what the rest the world do is up to them as seen in this case.

Yes and those words said nothing on the subject of figures for drug related crime and smuggling. Nor did they claim to be exclusively aimed at your homeland.

So I'll say it again : The drug war is receding literally on a year by year basis. For the reasons outlined in my initial defense of this statement.

I'm confident most people who read it will find it easy to agree with even if they don't agree with it.