[Smithy]

3rd shooting apparently underway in eastern Paris

[kirklancaster]

Both the reported comment by one of the terrorists that "We don't kill civilians", and his action in letting the print shop customer "go" would appear very noble, but - again - actual analysis of the 'sub-text' reveals a great anomaly -- if they "don't kill civilians" what is the point of taken a petrified civilian hostage?

An hostage who you are not going to kill is totally useless because where is the leverage?

"Keep back coppers and get me a fully fueled jet and clearance to Syria, or the hostage gets tickled"

Naah I don't think so.

[Sticks]

kirklancaster of course murder is wrong, but what the magazine did was inexpedient given what has gone before. I did not say their murder was justified, but that such an action taken against them was bound to happen.

As an aside, I have come across this article, which is critical of that magazine. To quote a contact on Facebook who has lived in France.

Charlie Hebdo was a racist publication drawn by white men. Freedom of speech in France is freedom for white people to S**t on everybody else.

Are you so quick to defend this magazine, given it's racist leanings, to print what it likes? Does this really fall into the maxim attributed to Voltaire, "Je suis en profond désaccord avec ce que vous dites, mais défendrai jusqu'ŕ la mort votre droit de le dire "

"I disagree profoundly with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it"

This was not true satire of the likes of Gilray in the 19th Century or Private Eye in the 20th Century.

You say I am "trying to excuse forced censorship of artistic expression, freedom of speech and literary freedom by the use of intimidation, murder and violence by terrorists", what I am advocating are pragmatic precautions. Sometimes we have to self censor, for pragmatic purposes. We can not tell our boss that his jokes are just not funny, especially if we want a raise, or we know he has been tasked with selecting people for the chop in a round of cost cutting.

Returning to the terrorism example, I have already given you the example of how armed forces personnel are instructed not to wear uniform when off duty, because of possible attacks (Stemming from the IRA). Remember how Lee Rigsby was callously murdered by Jihad-is because they just wanted to murder a soldier? These murderers waited until he had just come out of the barracks in Woolwich, which identified him to them as a soldier.

Continuing with that theme, several years ago, I was told by someone who had served during the troubles, that when off duty, they could not visit certain shops or certain parts of the town, as republicans there would note they had short haircuts, identifying them as members of the armed forces, and their details would be taken so they could be attacked. They were also barred from certain shops, because the shop personnel would suffer reprisals for serving them, and they were not to put those people at risk.

This was in effect an infringement on their freedom, especially when they were off duty, but these infringements were accepted for good pragmatic reasons.

Coming back to today, there are individuals and groups who have the means to mount such attacks as happened in France or the one in Australia. They are very passionate about their "Holy Prophet", with the man from High Wycombe saying he loved the "Holy Prophet" more than his wife and children. (Note the quotes around "Holy Prophet", maybe I should of used them earlier) MI5 says it can not stop these people, especially the lone wolves.

Is provoking such people to violence, by publishing material that they find offensive such a smart idea? Sure it is your right of free expression to insult them and their beliefs, but is it pragmatic or expedient?

Finally for the moment you say “Brought it on themselves” and “They had it coming” are merely different ways of saying the same thing by common usage definition

That is just an excuse to be lazy about use of the English language.

Both expressions do cite a causal link, but the second expression, "They had it coming" implies a moral dimensions where they deserved it, which clearly in this case they did not. The other expression says they are suffering certain consequences of actions taken, however well entitled they are to take such actions, e.g. publishing offensive cartoons, consequences that should have been anticipated.

[Beso]

It's very sad. women children taken hostage now.

Been watching all morning, canthelp feeling the news reporters are wanting it to all kick off on telly though.

[Kizzy]

2 hostages have been killed

[Kazanne]

Oh Jeez , what now? just as I thought this was coming to an end. I hope we are on alert.

[Josy]

Been following this on the live news, sounds like there's 2 of the supermarket hostages dead already and possibly more injured, also woman and children being held.

Hope this all ends soon and the less loss of more lives the better.

[Cherie]

The third gunman involved in the original attack and who allegedly handed himself in, there has been very little coverage of him, I ready somewhere last night (not sure if true) that the guy handed himself in as he was named on social media and was not involved and was in school at the time of the incident, anyone know anything else about this?

[arista]

Originally Posted by Josy

Been following this on the live news, sounds like there's 2 of the supermarket hostages dead already and possibly more injured, also woman and children being held.

Hope this all ends soon and the less loss of more lives the better.

It appears at both locations
Police are so strong in Firepower
they will have to Die
Snipers are the best job

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

2 hostages have been killed

what at the New one
Kosher Grocery Store?

[kirklancaster]

What happened to the "We don't kill civilians" crap - murdering bastards. Trust them? Appease them? Treat them with restraint, respect?

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The third gunman involved in the original attack and who allegedly handed himself in, there has been very little coverage of him, I ready somewhere last night (not sure if true) that the guy handed himself in as he was named on social media and was not involved and was in school at the time of the incident, anyone know anything else about this?

Been wondering about him myself Cherie, I heard about him handing himself in then there's been nothing at all mentioned about it since, are you thinking this other gunman at the supermarket could be the real third gunman?

[Ammi]

..the two people believed to have taken hostages in the supermarket...

Spoiler:

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Josy

Been wondering about him myself Cherie, I heard about him handing himself in then there's been nothing at all mentioned about it since, are you thinking this other gunman at the supermarket could be the real third gunman?

Yes it seems a huge coincidence what with the shooting of the policewoman yesterday and now this hostage situation at the supermarket

[Nedusa]

I am hearing now that what we are seeing from the terrorists is just a horrible ploy to divert police resources from a much greater atrocity which could result in mass civilian deaths.

These attacks 3 now all with hostages demanding massive police presences may be decoys to draws police resources away from the real attack possibly an attack using explosives, suicide bombers or car bombs to produce mass civilian deaths.

Really really worrying situation and getting worse by the hour.




.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I am hearing now that what we are seeing from the terrorists is just a horrible ploy to divert police resources from a much greater atrocity which could result in mass civilian deaths.

These attacks 3 now all with hostages demanding massive police presences may be decoys to draws police resources away from the real attack possibly an attack using explosives, suicide bombers or car bombs to produce mass civilian deaths.

Really really worrying situation and getting worse by the hour.




.

..where is that source from, Nedusa..?..

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I am hearing now that what we are seeing from the terrorists is just a horrible ploy to divert police resources from a much greater atrocity which could result in mass civilian deaths.

These attacks 3 now all with hostages demanding massive police presences may be decoys to draws police resources away from the real attack possibly an attack using explosives, suicide bombers or car bombs to produce mass civilian deaths.

Really really worrying situation and getting worse by the hour.




.

I can't keep up where is the third hostage situation Nedusa?

[Ammi]

..there was a false alarm near the Eiffel Tower..is that the one..?..

..EDIT:..two hostage situations confirmed on sky...6 hostages being held in the supermarket and one in the factory..

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I can't keep up where is the third hostage situation Nedusa?

One in North Eastern Paris, one in Khosher Bakery and my apologies the third incident was not a hostage incident.

So two hostage incidents at present, with two or three hostages dead in the bakery standoff.

Possibly the first of a wave of attacks




.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..there was a false alarm near the Eiffel Tower..is that the one..?..

..EDIT:..two hostage situations confirmed on sky...6 hostages being held in the supermarket and one in the factory..

France has a Massive Police Force
but they are under attack
by Terrorists using Mega AK47

[Ammi]

..a woman has told Israel's Channel 2 that her nephew and his baby are among the hostages at the supermarket..

[letmein]

I'm waiting for France to pull a WWII and start waiting for the US to intervene. France has failed. This is beyond ridiculous now. How many more people have to be slaughtered before they get this under control?? They're probably on the phone right now requesting that Obama send help. The US would take these guys out in two seconds flat. No messing around. It makes me sick waking up and reading this nonsense.

[letmein]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..a woman has told Israel's Channel 2 that her nephew and his baby are among the hostages at the supermarket..

Just wonderful.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..a woman has told Israel's Channel 2 that her nephew and his baby are among the hostages at the supermarket..

Yes thats making it all worse
FoxNewsHD is frothing at their mouth over this


France 24 English is great
and SkyNewsHD Live
and CNN Live

[arista]

France24 confirmed
there is 6 Hostages at the Kosher store in Paris