[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

She says she is a woman, and the legal status clearly needs changing. We can't just stick our heads in the sand and ignore their clear gender identity for the sake of what's written on paper. You seem to care more for the logistics of things than the people actually involved. I recognise that we cannot assume a gender and that we must seek their legal recognition. But when it has been brought up that said document is wrong, we must correct it before putting someone into an environment where they will not be comfortable.

Well when it comes to a person stating outright they're one thing and their legal status is another it begs the question why they didn't care enough to have it changed? If they feel so strongly that when it comes to being placed into a situation where people are grouped by gender, why not help themselves by changing it and stop them being grouped with the wrong people?

Then if they decide they will allow cases like this through and transfer them you open a can of worms for other people (who won't all be genuine) contradicting their legal information and "saying" it's different without it having been changed.

A line needs to be drawn.

You then have the other problem of people who feel they identify as both or neither genders or an entirely different gender entirely (You know because male and female isn't enough?)? Are we opening a third prison for them? As Kizzy said earlier, is it one rule for one and another for the rest?

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Well when it comes to a person stating outright they're one thing and their legal status is another it begs the question why they didn't care enough to have it changed? If they feel so strongly that when it comes to being placed into a situation where people are grouped by gender, why not help themselves by changing it and stop them being grouped with the wrong people?

Then if they decide they will allow cases like this through and transfer them you open a can of worms for other people (who won't all be genuine) contradicting their legal information and "saying" it's different without it having been changed.

A line needs to be drawn.

You then have the other problem of people who feel they identify as both or neither genders or an entirely different gender entirely (You know because male and female isn't enough?)? Are we opening a third prison for them? As Kizzy said earlier, is it one rule for one and another for the rest?

To your first post, I will simply refer to my previous points because I feel I've explained my view enough here. Their legal status is incorrect, and during the court they should have looked into correcting it before sending them to a male prison where they will face harassment and suicidal thoughts. It may also be worth noting that changing one's legal documents is a process that takes time, and how long this person has been 'out' as transgender is unknown from this article. I am making the assumption that they have not managed to have their legal status changed and there is no malicious intent here, along with the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle embodied within the law. We cannot draw assumptions like this without proper evidence to suggest as such.

In regards to your 'can of worms' comment, I just simply disagree. People can claim a different legal gender if they really want, but what is the result? A cisgender woman gets to go into a male prison? So what? Stupid them for attempting to exploit the system, they will be removed from the prison with time and probably convicted of fraud in said scenario.

For those outside the two gender 'norms', male and female, it would depend on the person's wishes and how the court feels appropriate. It may be wise to look into designating a few prisons (only a few) to those who identify as gender-neutral, genderqueer, or anything else not legally recognised. I'm not sure on this, but I believe a person can specify their gender as 'other' in many countries, and that could work here I think. There would not need to be many of these, since assuming 5% of the population commits a crime.. we could make an assumption that 5% of the non-binary population also commit crimes. And given the very small minority that they are, it would be very little people, if any. LGBT+ do tend to have lower crime rates anyway.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

To your first post, I will simply refer to my previous points because I feel I've explained my view enough here. Their legal status is incorrect, and during the court they should have looked into correcting it before sending them to a male prison where they will face harassment and suicidal thoughts. It may also be worth noting that changing one's legal documents is a process that takes time, and how long this person has been 'out' as transgender is unknown from this article. I am making the assumption that they have not managed to have their legal status changed and there is no malicious intent here, along with the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle embodied within the law. We cannot draw assumptions like this without proper evidence to suggest as such.

Yes, it takes time. However, if they were in the process of this there would be a record and a very good case for them being moved to the prison of their choice even if the paperwork hadn't been finalised.

Originally Posted by JoshBB

We cannot draw assumptions like this without proper evidence to suggest as such.

Which is the exact basis of my point. We can't simply take people at face value. Fantastic if we could. But the world doesn't work that way.

Originally Posted by JoshBB

In regards to your 'can of worms' comment, I just simply disagree. People can claim a different legal gender if they really want, but what is the result? A cisgender woman gets to go into a male prison? So what? Stupid them for attempting to exploit the system, they will be removed from the prison with time and probably convicted of fraud in said scenario.

Well, you've actually just provided an example of a can of worms.

Never mind the prisoner themselves, what about the the entire wing full of women who don't want to share facilities with a man? They don't get their wish but this person claiming to be a woman in a man's body does?

Also, convicted of fraud on what grounds? If you've given people the right to say "My documents are wrong, I'm actually [insert whatever here]" and that's it then there are no grounds for fraud in this bizarre case. We're not talking about proving someone lied about a qualification on their CV, we're talking about someone's feelings and state of mind.

Originally Posted by JoshBB

For those outside the two gender 'norms', male and female, it would depend on the person's wishes and how the court feels appropriate. It may be wise to look into designating a few prisons (only a few) to those who identify as gender-neutral, genderqueer, or anything else not legally recognised. I'm not sure on this, but I believe a person can specify their gender as 'other' in many countries, and that could work here I think. There would not need to be many of these, since assuming 5% of the population commits a crime.. we could make an assumption that 5% of the non-binary population also commit crimes. And given the very small minority that they are, it would be very little people, if any. LGBT+ do tend to have lower crime rates anyway.

And to this, I have the same reaction I had to them adding about 150 new genders to the list on Facebook.......

[lostalex]

As a gay male i would't feel safe in a heterosexual male prison, so why don't they also give gay men their own prison?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by lostalex

s a gay male i would't feel safe in a heater male prison, so why don't they also give gay men their own prison?

And here we have the can of worms.

[Kizzy]

'A transgender woman has become the second trans prisoner in the space of a month to apparently take their own life while serving time in a male jail in England.

Joanne Latham, 38, from Nottingham, died in Woodhill prison in Milton Keynes on Friday. It is understood she had changed her name this summer, having previously been known as Edward Adam Brown or Edward Latham.

She was serving a number of life sentences for attempted murder and was housed on the close supervision centre (CSC), reserved for the most dangerous and vulnerable prisoners.

Her death comes just weeks after the death of 21-year-old Vicky Thompson, who was being held at Armley, a category B men’s prison in Leeds.'



http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...e-in-male-jail

[Livia]

According to the Guardian, 82 people committed suicide in prison in 2014. The person in the article posted above (by Kizzy) says she tried to kill another inmate while she was serving her original sentence, and then tried to kill another patient by stabing him in the neck when she was under psychiatric supervision in Rampton. Not sure if her gender issues were the crux of the matter....

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

According to the Guardian, 82 people committed suicide in prison in 2014. The person in the article posted above (by Kizzy) says she tried to kill another inmate while she was serving her original sentence, and then tried to kill another patient by stabing him in the neck when she was under psychiatric supervision in Rampton. Not sure if her gender issues were the crux of the matter....

So a murderer/multi-attempted murderer tops him/herself. So what? One less burden on the tax payer. I hope this starts a new trend.

[Kizzy]

'CSCs are not designed to deal with prisoners with mental health issues, but in 2011 the manager of the unit in Woodhill said many prisoners did have psychiatric problems and that incidence of self harm was high.'

[Benjamin]

To solve the problem they could, you know, not break the law in the first place. They give up their rights when they commit a crime.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by God

To solve the problem they could, you know, not break the law in the first place. They give up their rights when they commit a crime.

You lose your liberty not your humanity when you have mental health issues.... Wow, roll on the season of goodwill eh?

[Vicky.]

Sorry but I don't think its a good idea to let people who say they identify with another gender be in different prisons tbh. Obviously once ops and such are done and gender is 'legally' changed (as much as it can be), fair enough. For someone who just says they do? Kinda opening up a can of worms IMO.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by God

To solve the problem they could, you know, not break the law in the first place. They give up their rights when they commit a crime.

Radical idea there, God.

I think the scale of people suffering mental problems outside prison is staggeringly high, so it's no surprise that many people who break the law suffer mental problems. The problem is that not enough non-prisoners get the help they need so it follows that the shortcomings would drip down into prison. Maybe if people with mental problems got better help there would be fewer of them in prison.

[kirklancaster]

How many social houses or new hospital beds and equipment could have been provided by all those millions which have been spent on tending to PETER SUTCLIFFE's MENTAL HEALTH problems in Broadmoor over the psast 30 odd years?

Which sane minded person gives a rat's ass whether bastard Sutcliffe and others like him howl at the moon every night or headbutt the cell walls every day of his 'life sentence'? - I ******* don't.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Radical idea there, God.

I think the scale of people suffering mental problems outside prison is staggeringly high, so it's no surprise that many people who break the law suffer mental problems. The problem is that not enough non-prisoners get the help they need so it follows that the shortcomings would drip down into prison. Maybe if people with mental problems got better help there would be fewer of them in prison.

How do we know they had no mental health issues outside prior to him breaking the law, and it was the mental health issues that led to the law break?
As you say he may just be a victim of the system, as stated in the article the facility is not compatible for those with complex mental health issues.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

How do we know they had no mental health issues outside prior to him breaking the law, and it was the mental health issues that led to the law break?
As you say he may just be a victim of the system, as stated in the article the facility is not compatible for those with complex mental health issues.

I don't know that. Looking at the evidence so far it would seem to me that there is every possibility that he was failed before he became a prisoner, by the lack of mental health support outside jail. There isn't nearly enough support for people suffering mental health issues, we all know that.

My point is that the person concerned was suffering a range of mental health issues so I strongly suspect that gender issues were only a part of what drove this person to suicide.