[Marsh.]

We get it Kizzy, you're right, we're wrong.

So annoying to have to discuss topics with people with such a lower IQ than yourself.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

We get it Kizzy, you're right, we're wrong.

So annoying to have to discuss topics with people with such a lower IQ than yourself.

I forgive you my child, now say 20 hail kizzys and kiss my ring.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

my guess would be 96/4% in say the UK



Not so much intelligence as education is my point on countries- Indian people are not stupid they are just poorly educated for example - same for any 3rd world country where religion and superstition flourishes

Educate them and the need for religion will dissapear like snow off a dyke in April

....hmmm, that's interesting because in terms of education as such, I'm fortunate enough to have experience of some children and adults who would probably be considered some of the least educated in the world, in terms of how we would see 'educated'....in the History/Geography/Maths/Sciences etc...so very much 'uneducated people'..?...and you're right, who God is also very much 'visible' to them...he's visible to them because their lives have been nothing but death/sadness/the very 'evils' of human and the very evils of the capability of humans...where is 'God' in their world, how on earth do they find him 'visible' when everything around them is the exact opposite of the concept of God and good and what they believe their God to be...but they can see a flower in the ground and with that one small thing, what they can see, despite everything around them, is beauty and hope../someone could give them virtually nothing at all, a very small act of kindness, you could say..?...nothing that in any way could even touch the negatives and the wrongs their lives have seen ...and with that small 'give', they see 'God', they see the good in people despite their lives telling them that there is no good in people...they have no choices in their lives/their lives are filled with very, very little beauty/very little hope/very little of anything at all positive or to believe in, in the balance of 'good in man'....to 'educate' in the context that I think you mean, as in...look this is science, these are 'proven facts' and your God doesn't exist, there is no beauty, the is no hope, there is nothing other than evil in your worlds/face 'facts' for goodness sake....so there you go, now you know, you don't need your God, do you..?...that isn't 'education' is it, that's a destruction of souls and hearts and a filling of cynicism and despair....even if it was in our power as a world to give an equal 'education' to everyone/every child etc on this earth...(which obviously it just isn't..)...it would never be in our power to change their worlds, take away what is their worlds and their everydays...so we 'educate', we take away their small balances, their small realisations of beauty/good and 'God'...and we leave them exactly where they are to face their realities/their sadness and their losses...'superstition' as you call it flourishes..?...well, maybe so because it needs to flourish, it needs to be present and God needs to be believed in because all lives are not as fortunate as yours or mine to have the balances of good/love and family/friends etc as we have...you know, us well educated and 'intelligent' people....


...obviously I'm not taking about the everyday/average and 'norm' of religion, because everyone with a faith will find their own positives, those things are personal tho them and applied in their own lives...but I'm talking more of an extreme with the good and positive of a faith/belief etc...but with extremes of the negatives of terrorism and evils etc, it's important to look at the balance of good and positives as well...actually not just positive for some but an essential in life....and something like a small wooden crucifix type thing for some children is a similar meaning as a little football card of David Beckham they may be lucky enough to own, it's hope and it's the focus of something other than death/sadness and nothingness/their realities...

[the truth]

has anyone noticed as God disappears and Jesus, we end up with the vacuum filled by celebrities like Jordan, beckham and other vacuous bores, who are idolised and worshipped by the impressionable millions

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Taking aside that it would be difficult to say who an intelligent person is and who isnt

What do you think would be say the percentage split of intelligent people who believe and those who do not?

And this is the main reason I have found this thread particularly annoying.

I will put up my education and intelligence against anyone on this forum. I am at least as intelligent as any of you. And yet, because I believe in God, I am not considered by some atheists to be anything other than naďve and stupid. Which might be amusing if it wasn't so ridiculous.

And incidentally, if you're talking about a percentage split of intelligent people who believe and those who don't, it would be more of a "debate" if you were actually in possession of those statistics, or at least a version of them, otherwise it's a meaningless comment.

[Kizzy]

For me I would say it depends which type of intelligence you are referring to: interpersonal, Intrapersonal and others as well as concepts or self actualisation and realisation.
I wouldn't say academic intelligence can be used in any way as a barometer to measure how spiritual an individual may or may not be.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by the truth

has anyone noticed as God disappears and Jesus, we end up with the vacuum filled by celebrities like Jordan, beckham and other vacuous bores, who are idolised and worshipped by the impressionable millions

Yes,have definitely noticed standards slipping.

[Denver]

God is like a Angel just guiding you through life without the need to be seen

[Marsh.]

The correlation between education and religion is an interesting one.

In my own experience, having grown up on a council estate in and mixed with some shall we say "rough" people (like really rough). They've always been the types to laugh at religion and anything like it.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

And this is the main reason I have found this thread particularly annoying.

I will put up my education and intelligence against anyone on this forum. I am at least as intelligent as any of you. And yet, because I believe in God, I am not considered by some atheists to be anything other than naďve and stupid. Which might be amusing if it wasn't so ridiculous.

And incidentally, if you're talking about a percentage split of intelligent people who believe and those who don't, it would be more of a "debate" if you were actually in possession of those statistics, or at least a version of them, otherwise it's a meaningless comment.

I volunteer as tribute! ... ... ...

In all seriousness, though, I don't think LT is saying that "all religious people are stupid or less intelligent". People find religion for all sorts of reasons. There are plenty of intelligent religious people, and plenty of unintelligent non-religious people.

What he is saying, is that as a percentage, if you take a sample of 1000 more intelligent people with a higher level of education, and compare them to the "general population", there is a smaller percentage of believers. Probably enough of a difference to be statistically significant.

You can see that just by taking Universities as an example, to be honest. Of course there are religious people at Universities - there are whole societies and churches within most - however, again, we're looking at the percentage of religious vs non-religious students at University against the percentage of religious vs non-religious people in society as a whole. There is a clear difference.

Or compare the central US states to the coastal states. Fewer people in the central states go on to further education, coupled with higher levels of religiosity. Or just put it on a global scale - countries with very low levels of education tend to have very religious populations.

Not sure how any of that can be flicked away by saying "show me official stats". General knowledge is valid in a vague, conversational statement. We're not in court

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

The correlation between education and religion is an interesting one.

In my own experience, having grown up on a council estate in and mixed with some shall we say "rough" people (like really rough). They've always been the types to laugh at religion and anything like it.

Any stats to back up that generalisation?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Any stats to back up that generalisation?

I haven't made any generalisations?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I volunteer as tribute! ... ... ...

In all seriousness, though, I don't think LT is saying that "all religious people are stupid or less intelligent". People find religion for all sorts of reasons. There are plenty of intelligent religious people, and plenty of unintelligent non-religious people.

What he is saying, is that as a percentage, if you take a sample of 1000 more intelligent people with a higher level of education, and compare them to the "general population", there is a smaller percentage of believers. Probably enough of a difference to be statistically significant.

You can see that just by taking Universities as an example, to be honest. Of course there are religious people at Universities - there are whole societies and churches within most - however, again, we're looking at the percentage of religious vs non-religious students at University against the percentage of religious vs non-religious people in society as a whole. There is a clear difference.

Or compare the central US states to the coastal states. Fewer people in the central states go on to further education, coupled with higher levels of religiosity. Or just put it on a global scale - countries with very low levels of education tend to have very religious populations.

Not sure how any of that can be flicked away by saying "show me official stats". General knowledge is valid in a vague, conversational statement. We're not in court

Quite

No one is being personal so their is no need to take it so

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I haven't made any generalisations?

You specifically referred to council estates both in relation to education and belief in religion.
Is your opinion based on the handful of people you knew or everyone on every council estate?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by the truth

has anyone noticed as God disappears and Jesus, we end up with the vacuum filled by celebrities like Jordan, beckham and other vacuous bores, who are idolised and worshipped by the impressionable millions

Again Truth, it's not that I disagree with you, it's just that it being better still doesn't make it true. There are MANY wonderful rolemodels in fiction, both ancient and modern, far better rolemodels than most of our real-world celebrities, or even real world non-celebrities. Because fictional characters can be written with few or zero flaws, which... isn't realistic. Real people are full of flaws.

The fact that they are great role models, and that it would be wonderful if they were real, doesn't then make them real.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You specifically referred to council estates both in relation to education and belief in religion.
Is your opinion based on the handful of people you knew or everyone on every council estate?

Well given I was talking about people I knew and my experience showing the opposite of a point LT made I would've thought it was obvious?

I don't recall pretending to know every person on every council estate?

I was referring to my experience of people with low or even no education level and their attitudes to religion. I can only speak of my own experience. As I said, it's an interesting correlation to think about.

[Denver]

You can't be taught religion you have to believe in it yourself you can't be taught to believe in it so I don't understand the references to education

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Ammi

....hmmm, that's interesting because in terms of education as such, I'm fortunate enough to have experience of some children and adults who would probably be considered some of the least educated in the world, in terms of how we would see 'educated'....in the History/Geography/Maths/Sciences etc...so very much 'uneducated people'..?...and you're right, who God is also very much 'visible' to them...he's visible to them because their lives have been nothing but death/sadness/the very 'evils' of human and the very evils of the capability of humans...where is 'God' in their world, how on earth do they find him 'visible' when everything around them is the exact opposite of the concept of God and good and what they believe their God to be...but they can see a flower in the ground and with that one small thing, what they can see, despite everything around them, is beauty and hope../someone could give them virtually nothing at all, a very small act of kindness, you could say..?...nothing that in any way could even touch the negatives and the wrongs their lives have seen ...and with that small 'give', they see 'God', they see the good in people despite their lives telling them that there is no good in people...they have no choices in their lives/their lives are filled with very, very little beauty/very little hope/very little of anything at all positive or to believe in, in the balance of 'good in man'....to 'educate' in the context that I think you mean, as in...look this is science, these are 'proven facts' and your God doesn't exist, there is no beauty, the is no hope, there is nothing other than evil in your worlds/face 'facts' for goodness sake....so there you go, now you know, you don't need your God, do you..?...that isn't 'education' is it, that's a destruction of souls and hearts and a filling of cynicism and despair....even if it was in our power as a world to give an equal 'education' to everyone/every child etc on this earth...(which obviously it just isn't..)...it would never be in our power to change their worlds, take away what is their worlds and their everydays...so we 'educate', we take away their small balances, their small realisations of beauty/good and 'God'...and we leave them exactly where they are to face their realities/their sadness and their losses...'superstition' as you call it flourishes..?...well, maybe so because it needs to flourish, it needs to be present and God needs to be believed in because all lives are not as fortunate as yours or mine to have the balances of good/love and family/friends etc as we have...you know, us well educated and 'intelligent' people....


...obviously I'm not taking about the everyday/average and 'norm' of religion, because everyone with a faith will find their own positives, those things are personal tho them and applied in their own lives...but I'm talking more of an extreme with the good and positive of a faith/belief etc...but with extremes of the negatives of terrorism and evils etc, it's important to look at the balance of good and positives as well...actually not just positive for some but an essential in life....and something like a small wooden crucifix type thing for some children is a similar meaning as a little football card of David Beckham they may be lucky enough to own, it's hope and it's the focus of something other than death/sadness and nothingness/their realities...

False hope is no hope at all

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Well given I was talking about people I knew and my experience showing the opposite of a point LT made I would've thought it was obvious?

I don't recall pretending to know every person on every council estate?

No, it wasn't obvious I thought when you mentioned council estates I thought you were privy to some information we weren't.

No you don't know every person on every council estate, which is why I suggested it was a generalisation.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Adam.

You can't be taught religion you have to believe in it yourself you can't be taught to believe in it so I don't understand the references to education

Parental osmosis is the number 1 method of religious transfer

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

No, it wasn't obvious I thought when you mentioned council estates I thought you were privy to some information we weren't.

No you don't know every person on every council estate, which is why I suggested it was a generalisation.

I didn't pretend to know every person?

Hence why I began my post with "In my experience" and mentioned the people I grew up around.

Shall I draw a diagram?

[Denver]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Parental osmosis is the number 1 method of religious transfer

But a lot of children don't care as they get older nowadays

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Adam.

You can't be taught religion you have to believe in it yourself you can't be taught to believe in it so I don't understand the references to education

Most religion is taught to children by their parents. Those children believe it without question - because their parents have told them that it's true. The more that individual is educated on various subjects - science, philosophy, history - the better equipped they are to question what they were taught in early childhood and form their own conclusion.

At a high enough level of general understanding, let me first say, some of those people DO genuinely retain their faith. Some become "wobblers" who question how true it could be but are too fearful to completely reject the notion of a creator and an afterlife (there are a lot of those. A LOT.).

In my opinion, most find enough conflicting information to start to seriously doubt scripture and become either non-specific agnostic or outright atheist. Or become so bored with the whole thing that they stop thinking about it completely, would be defined as generally non-religious, but would respond to the question with a "Dunno, I've not really given it much thought".

Actually... I think it's likely that most people, both the vaguely religious and the mostly non-religious, actually fall into that last category. Hell... a lot of people who actively attend church fall into that category.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

False hope is no hope at all

That's not strictly true... If you don't know something there is always hope that one day you will.
False hope suggests that there is a degree of certainty, and there is, always therefore it is not 'hopeless'.
What is sad about this is those who have nothing but hope, say the poor African children they are given god as a beacon of hope.... unfortunately he is an African Anglican god who states that gay marriage is wrong, thus perpetuating the regressive regime for another generation.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Adam.

But a lot of children don't care as they get older nowadays

In Britain / a lot of Europe / The (coastal) States that's very true. But levels of active religion in those areas have been plummeting for years, so...