[user104658]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

I remember as a child kneeling at the foot of my bed once asking God a question. I never got a response. I wasn't asking for material things for Christmas or to get the math teacher at school that i didn't like sacked. I simply asked him that as the creator of everything why did he create cancer? He never got back to me.

One of the few times I've ever felt that I can relate, Johnny .

I wasn't just raised without religion. I didn't just wake up in my happy bed one morning and decide "nah, not for me". I felt its absence so strongly at an early age that it was never even a remote possibility to consider. I looked at my experiences, and I looked at the world, and it was crystal clear. The world is chaos, it has no intrinsic meaning, and it is pain. The only real goodness in the world is what people have created for ourselves: Art, music, sport and other recreation. Emotional connections - desperately clinging to other humans (or animals) as we hurtle through infinity on a speck of dust.

My own grandmother was fit and healthy, for a 74 year old. She was walking into town... no need to cross any major roads. But she saw the minister of her church across the road and wanted to chat to him about church stuff, so she crossed. She was hit by a car doing 60mph, and hit her head on the road. She seemed OK in hospital... but then she slowly started to lose her mind, with a brain injury. She regressed to a toddler like state like ****ing Benjamin Button over the course of 2 months, being cared for by my mother, and then she died a screaming, terrified death in our house while I sat on my bed in the next room. My mother pretty much checked out of parenting that night and never returned. I was 8. By the time I was 15 she was a full blown alcoholic and had flushed her career down the pan. By the time I was 30 her liver had melted, her face had started to rot off in her hospital bed, and I was sat at her funeral thinking "She died over 20 years ago anyway".

Crossed the road to talk to her minister.

I always thought it was ironic. Then I met my wife... and she told me a story about how her own dear great-grandmother was living comfotably in her twilight years. Happy, content, just liked to make sure she got out on Sunday to attend church. Where she slipped on a stone step and bashed HER head in. And died a slow moaning death in hospital. Thanks again, God! Good going, Jesus ol' pal! Absolute screamer!

Hmmm.

Now I have to wonder... does God simply not exist, or is he just a cruel bastard with the darkest sense of humor imaginable? Is he a full blown psychopath?

Nah. The only logical answer is that he does not exist. When you get older and start to add in things like a greater understanding of the scale of the universe, logic, reasoning, multiple varied religions based purely on geography, a quick look at the political origins of organised religion... et al... it only becomes even more obvious.


People have the right to believe whatever they want to believe, that much is true. That doesn't mean that the rest of us have to smile and nod and pretend that any of it is ****ing vaguely plausible. It bugs the **** out of me. I also find it strange that the "right to believe what you believe" only seems to extend to the religious and not the non-religious. The non-religious, apparently, have to pretend to believe that it's all valid and possible even if we don't.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

One of the few times I've ever felt that I can relate, Johnny .

I wasn't just raised without religion. I didn't just wake up in my happy bed one morning and decide "nah, not for me". I felt its absence so strongly at an early age that it was never even a remote possibility to consider. I looked at my experiences, and I looked at the world, and it was crystal clear. The world is chaos, it has no intrinsic meaning, and it is pain. The only real goodness in the world is what people have created for ourselves: Art, music, sport and other recreation. Emotional connections - desperately clinging to other humans (or animals) as we hurtle through infinity on a speck of dust.

My own grandmother was fit and healthy, for a 74 year old. She was walking into town... no need to cross any major roads. But she saw the minister of her church across the road and wanted to chat to him about church stuff, so she crossed. She was hit by a car doing 60mph, and hit her head on the road. She seemed OK in hospital... but then she slowly started to lose her mind, with a brain injury. She regressed to a toddler like state like ****ing Benjamin Button over the course of 2 months, being cared for by my mother, and then she died a screaming, terrified death in our house while I sat on my bed in the next room. My mother pretty much checked out of parenting that night and never returned. I was 8. By the time I was 15 she was a full blown alcoholic and had flushed her career down the pan. By the time I was 30 her liver had melted, her face had started to rot off in her hospital bed, and I was sat at her funeral thinking "She died over 20 years ago anyway".

Crossed the road to talk to her minister.

I always thought it was ironic. Then I met my wife... and she told me a story about how her own dear great-grandmother was living comfotably in her twilight years. Happy, content, just liked to make sure she got out on Sunday to attend church. Where she slipped on a stone step and bashed HER head in. And died a slow moaning death in hospital. Thanks again, God! Good going, Jesus ol' pal! Absolute screamer!

Hmmm.

Now I have to wonder... does God simply not exist, or is he just a cruel bastard with the darkest sense of humor imaginable? Is he a full blown psychopath?

Nah. The only logical answer is that he does not exist. When you get older and start to add in things like a greater understanding of the scale of the universe, logic, reasoning, multiple varied religions based purely on geography, a quick look at the political origins of organised religion... et al... it only becomes even more obvious.


People have the right to believe whatever they want to believe, that much is true. That doesn't mean that the rest of us have to smile and nod and pretend that any of it is ****ing vaguely plausible. It bugs the **** out of me. I also find it strange that the "right to believe what you believe" only seems to extend to the religious and not the non-religious. The non-religious, apparently, have to pretend to believe that it's all valid and possible even if we don't.

TS, I don't know what to say... after reading that I get how it would be hard to try to convince yourself of any force for good being in the world.
Your partner and children are all you need to believe in and they you. x

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

One of the few times I've ever felt that I can relate, Johnny .

I wasn't just raised without religion. I didn't just wake up in my happy bed one morning and decide "nah, not for me". I felt its absence so strongly at an early age that it was never even a remote possibility to consider. I looked at my experiences, and I looked at the world, and it was crystal clear. The world is chaos, it has no intrinsic meaning, and it is pain. The only real goodness in the world is what people have created for ourselves: Art, music, sport and other recreation. Emotional connections - desperately clinging to other humans (or animals) as we hurtle through infinity on a speck of dust.

My own grandmother was fit and healthy, for a 74 year old. She was walking into town... no need to cross any major roads. But she saw the minister of her church across the road and wanted to chat to him about church stuff, so she crossed. She was hit by a car doing 60mph, and hit her head on the road. She seemed OK in hospital... but then she slowly started to lose her mind, with a brain injury. She regressed to a toddler like state like ****ing Benjamin Button over the course of 2 months, being cared for by my mother, and then she died a screaming, terrified death in our house while I sat on my bed in the next room. My mother pretty much checked out of parenting that night and never returned. I was 8. By the time I was 15 she was a full blown alcoholic and had flushed her career down the pan. By the time I was 30 her liver had melted, her face had started to rot off in her hospital bed, and I was sat at her funeral thinking "She died over 20 years ago anyway".

Crossed the road to talk to her minister.

I always thought it was ironic. Then I met my wife... and she told me a story about how her own dear great-grandmother was living comfotably in her twilight years. Happy, content, just liked to make sure she got out on Sunday to attend church. Where she slipped on a stone step and bashed HER head in. And died a slow moaning death in hospital. Thanks again, God! Good going, Jesus ol' pal! Absolute screamer!

Hmmm.

Now I have to wonder... does God simply not exist, or is he just a cruel bastard with the darkest sense of humor imaginable? Is he a full blown psychopath?

Nah. The only logical answer is that he does not exist. When you get older and start to add in things like a greater understanding of the scale of the universe, logic, reasoning, multiple varied religions based purely on geography, a quick look at the political origins of organised religion... et al... it only becomes even more obvious.


People have the right to believe whatever they want to believe, that much is true. That doesn't mean that the rest of us have to smile and nod and pretend that any of it is ****ing vaguely plausible. It bugs the **** out of me. I also find it strange that the "right to believe what you believe" only seems to extend to the religious and not the non-religious. The non-religious, apparently, have to pretend to believe that it's all valid and possible even if we don't.

What a tragedy for a childhood experience. So sorry to hear about it. I can empathise as I had my own experiences. My own dad really suffered due to diabetes and having both legs amputated when I was in my teens. My mother who had leanings towards addiction became an alcoholic to escape in self pity a disabled husband. My poor dad, who was a lovely man, died when I was in my late twenties, within 3 months of my best friend dying of leukemia. Maybe that's why I'm such a cynic! I think when you've seen that kind of suffering close to it opens your eyes a lot to the world and our place in it though I did come to the conclusion there was no god before this.

I went to a church school, it had strong connections with the local church but in my early twenties I just realised I didn't believe in any of it and that was that. It was actually a relief to admit it to myself and I'm comfortable with it.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

TS, I don't know what to say... after reading that I get how it would be hard to try to convince yourself of any force for good being in the world.
Your partner and children are all you need to believe in and they you. x

You don't have to believe in god to be good or have a force for good just like you don't have to believe to have a conscience. There are bad, evil people who follow faith. Probably as many as don't.

[Northern Monkey]

Sad story TS.Sounds like some tough times.
I tend to agree with your points and am 99% on the side of non believer.To me it seems that the more humanity discovers about the universe and life that the more religious concepts and stories are proven to be false.
I do believe that in the Bible there is alot that is true.Not the miracles etc but the people in there.The stories in the New Testament are set in the middle east when it was under Roman rule and many of the protagonists are pretty certain to have existed through other historical non religious texts and archeology.I believe Jesus was a real dude but he was one of many preachers of his time and his disciples were real and had their parts to play in documenting and fabricating their parts of the bible.I don't hate religion,I find it very interesting as a historical reference to certain events and how people thought and how people wrote fiction.I think the bible is a pretty epic set of writings.
Saying all this i never say never as i don't know enough to give a definitive answer.I don't think anyone does or ever will know all the facts of the universe but it gets ever more unlikely that it was created by a supreme being.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

You don't have to believe in god to be good or have a force for good just like you don't have to believe to have a conscience. There are bad, evil people who follow faith. Probably as many as don't.

Did I say you did?...