[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

sorry I must have missed that Kaz when was that, and what was it wasted on?

It wasn't, some things could have been done and others as to GPs perhaps streamlined but no funding was wasted in my view by Labour.

What is a waste was the 'promised never to be going to happen under the Cameron led govt' 'unnecessary' and 'costly' top down re organisation of the NHS he brought in.

Something that has demoralised staff and it's still causing problems across the NHS.

You won't hear Con supporters moaning at that lie and disastrous re organisation however.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

It wasn't

You can't just make a statement like that without something to back it up.

Are people expected to believe you know - end of!

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

If that is the case then it it is a foregone conclusion that privatisation of the NHS will occur in or out of the EU.

Yes, so long as we have a Tory government.

As previously mentioned it would be electoral suicide for them to privatise the NHS, than trust the EU with all their 'secret' negotiations.

Watch this space. I intend to regurgitate this post in a few years time.

I really can't believe the hypocrisy, or ignorance, of those who shout very loudly about staying in the EU but then harp on equally as loudly about protecting our NHS. We can't have both.

The EU is one big corporate giant but they aren't the one forcing the hand of the Tory government over the NHS. The Neoliberal EU makes privatization less painful but you still need a Neoliberal (Tory) disire to go ahead with something as big as this.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

How is it already done - evidence? Social Services and the NHS are still publically funded.

And there was me thinking the sell off was common knowledge.

Whilst you may believe nothing has changed because we still get free health treatment at the point of delivery. The truth is, Foundation Trusts and most GP practices are now semi-independent business models. That means they are privately owned.

The way the government got away with this (and we are talking from Thatcher, through New Labour to now) is, they started to under invest to the point where the NHS started under performing. The government could then start claiming the NHS is no longer affordable/viable and desperately needs modernizing. This smear campaign, the brain child of Thatcher and Ken Clarke has worked magnificently.

The 2012 Health and Social Care Act removes the Government’s responsibility for the NHS, passing it down to a series of other bodies instead. Clinical Commissioning Groups (CCGs) are forced to open contracts to unlimited privatisation. Private companies are “cherry-picking” lucrative contracts leaving NHS trusts with even less money. CCGs are set to be privatised. It is difficult to believe but CCGs are now legally obliged to provide only emergency care and ambulances; the rest is up to their discretion. This translates into unlimited rationing. See here http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-10474075.html

So how does this end. Our health service will have clinical commissioning groups acting as insurance pools, buying care from private companies. The NHS will become a state insurer along the lines of Medicare in the US.
We are nearing the point of losing universal healthcare for each and every one of us. Bit by bit we will be told that certain extras are no longer free and we will be offered a cheap (to begin with) insurance to cover those extras. Slowly but surely, that list will get bigger.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

This article is so very true

You only have to compare nhs england with nhs wales
oh the welsh labour claim always theyre more caring they will save the nhs and stop it being privatised....yet all theyve ever done is waste, is to double / treble ceo wages and of treble the amount of burocrats and middle management which wastes the nhs billions

New Labour wanted to privatize the NHS as much as Thatcher and Major but we no longer have NL. You can't keep comparing the old NL with the Labour party of today... well you can try but it doesn't make much sense!

under the so called caring labour mrsa spread like wildfire, the abuses and cover ups were at record highs...the reporting system and the ombudsman was scaled back and those who dared criticize were bullied ...50% of doctors interviewed said they felt bullied and intimidated into not complaining during labours reign...debts rose and we saw the biggest abuses in nhs history with over 1000 dying of thirst and neglect in stafford hospital

New Labour does not = Labour. Can you please try and get your head round that?
As for bullying. My dad, a consultant for the NHS, is not allowed to publicly talk about the sell off. There is a huge amount of intimidation top down from the corporate giants now running the show. He knows doctors who have been intimidated so much they've had to leave the service... speak out and you get chased out.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

And there was me thinking the sell off was common knowledge.

Whilst you may believe nothing has changed because we still get free health treatment at the point of delivery. The truth is, Foundation Trusts and most GP practices are now semi-independent business models. That means they are privately owned.

The way the government got away with this (and we are talking from Thatcher, through New Labour to now) is, they started to under invest to the point where the NHS started under performing. The government could then start claiming the NHS is no longer affordable/viable and desperately needs modernizing. This smear campaign, the brain child of Thatcher and Ken Clarke has worked magnificently.

The 2012 Health and Social Care Act removes the Government’s responsibility for the NHS, passing it down to a series of other bodies instead. Clinical Commissioning Groups (CCGs) are forced to open contracts to unlimited privatisation. Private companies are “cherry-picking” lucrative contracts leaving NHS trusts with even less money. CCGs are set to be privatised. It is difficult to believe but CCGs are now legally obliged to provide only emergency care and ambulances; the rest is up to their discretion. This translates into unlimited rationing. See here http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-10474075.html

So how does this end. Our health service will have clinical commissioning groups acting as insurance pools, buying care from private companies. The NHS will become a state insurer along the lines of Medicare in the US.
We are nearing the point of losing universal healthcare for each and every one of us. Bit by bit we will be told that certain extras are no longer free and we will be offered a cheap (to begin with) insurance to cover those extras. Slowly but surely, that list will get bigger.

That sounds very much the same as the EU plan to do - and personally I would rather have no NHS outside of Europe than inside.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Are people just forgetting the 10/12 million Labour wasted on the NHS ? seems so.

Do you mean New Labour?
Are you talking about middle management rise? if not, you need to be clearer

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

It wasn't, some things could have been done and others as to GPs perhaps streamlined but no funding was wasted in my view by Labour.

What is a waste was the 'promised never to be going to happen under the Cameron led govt' 'unnecessary' and 'costly' top down re organisation of the NHS he brought in.

Something that has demoralised staff and it's still causing problems across the NHS.

You won't hear Con supporters moaning at that lie and disastrous re organisation however.

I know and it baffles me.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

That sounds very much the same as the EU plan to do - and personally I would rather have no NHS outside of Europe than inside.

Me too but if we have any chance to save and restore the NHS, we have to get rid of the Tory's.

I'm not saying all Conservatives think like this present neoliberal government do. Traditional (Crunchy) Conservatism is a very sound ideology.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Me too but if we have any chance to save and restore the NHS, we have to get rid of the Tory's.

I'm not saying all Conservatives think like this present neoliberal government do. Traditional (Crunchy) Conservatism is a very sound ideology.

I don't know, but I do know the NHS is not the only mammoth consideration. I simply do not trust Corbyn or Farron on other policies. Certainly with Corbyn coming out the EU won't be coming out of the EU. We will be EU puppets and nothing much will change.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I don't know, but I do know the NHS is not the only mammoth consideration. I simply do not trust Corbyn or Farron on other policies. Certainly with Corbyn coming out the EU won't be coming out of the EU. We will be EU puppets and nothing much will change.

I'm not concerned for my husband and myself but I'm greatly concerned for my children and my future grandchildren.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I'm not concerned for my husband and myself but I'm greatly concerned for my children and my future grandchildren.

Same here - it's natural to want a secure future for your children etc.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

New Labour wanted to privatize the NHS as much as Thatcher and Major but we no longer have NL. You can't keep comparing the old NL with the Labour party of today... well you can try but it doesn't make much sense!
New Labour does not = Labour. Can you please try and get your head round that?
As for bullying. My dad, a consultant for the NHS, is not allowed to publicly talk about the sell off. There is a huge amount of intimidation top down from the corporate giants now running the show. He knows doctors who have been intimidated so much they've had to leave the service... speak out and you get chased out.

new labour IS labour and loads of the new labour mps are still in power so wrggle all you like the last labour government were a disaster
your argument is very selective ask people who worked in the nhs under labour 1997 to 2010 endless bullying endless cover ups endless waste and middle management and absurd trusts and absurd targets and people thousands of people being starved to death and record levels of undiagnosed blood clots etc the list goes on and on...ask about all that? or do you only ask about stuff that fits your agends

[Livia]

The funding the NHS gets is not managed properly. That's not to say they couldn't do with more cash... I'd just like to be assured it wasn't going to be mismanaged. The NHS haemorrhages money. Similarly, if you're concerned about adult social care and the fact that many hard-working, working class people who've saved and paid into a pension are now helping to fund the feckless and the workshy to get it for nothing..... look at the taxi bill your local adult services pays. It'll be staggering.

[Tom4784]

The NHS is mismanaged BECAUSE the Tories want it to be so they can make people believe it needs 'reworking' AKA dismantling. The Doctor's strikes, the endless budget cuts etc. This is all to turn people's opinions against the NHS and make it easier to get rid of.

Unemployed people certainly don't have anything to do with the state of the NHS but I suppose it's better to blame the vulnerable rather than the people in charge who are purposely mismanaging budgets to sway public opinion.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

The funding the NHS gets is not managed properly. That's not to say they couldn't do with more cash... I'd just like to be assured it wasn't going to be mismanaged. The NHS haemorrhages money. Similarly, if you're concerned about adult social care and the fact that many hard-working, working class people who've saved and paid into a pension are now helping to fund the feckless and the workshy to get it for nothing..... look at the taxi bill your local adult services pays. It'll be staggering.

Sorry.. Get what for nothing social care or a pension?

What is the difference between feckless and work shy, how could you apply for your universal credit stating this as your pastime?

And finally should you be feckless or work shy should you simply do the rest of the hard working UK a favour and off yourself?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Sorry.. Get what for nothing social care or a pension?

What is the difference between feckless and work shy, how could you apply for your universal credit stating this as your pastime?

And finally should you be feckless or work shy should you simply do the rest of the hard working UK a favour and off yourself?

Everyone should get social care free. Otherwise English people are being discriminated against because they're not Scottish. And maybe if Adult Social Services bought themselves some minibuses and a couple of decent drivers their taxi bill wouldn't be RIDICULOUS!

You're the one who's suggested people "offing themselves". I didn't even intimate that. You hate people putting words in your mouth.... yet here you are doing it to me.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Everyone should get social care free. Otherwise English people are being discriminated against because they're not Scottish. And maybe if Adult Social Services bought themselves some minibuses and a couple of decent drivers their taxi bill wouldn't be RIDICULOUS!

You're the one who's suggested people "offing themselves". I didn't even intimate that. You hate people putting words in your mouth.... yet here you are doing it to me.

I didn't say you had, I asked you a question is all.

Maybe will the 10 billion squandered on useless IT systems could have bought a few buses... hey! they could have that one they wrote that lie on

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

The funding the NHS gets is not managed properly. That's not to say they couldn't do with more cash... I'd just like to be assured it wasn't going to be mismanaged. The NHS haemorrhages money. Similarly, if you're concerned about adult social care and the fact that many hard-working, working class people who've saved and paid into a pension are now helping to fund the feckless and the workshy to get it for nothing..... look at the taxi bill your local adult services pays. It'll be staggering.

The NHS is one of the most efficient healthcare services in the world, though, and FAR more effecient than - for example - the insurance-based US system. This has been written about so many times that I have to assume anyone who still thinks that the NHS is (comparatively) inefficient is simply parroting what they've heard, rather than speaking from any knowledge of the actual running costs.

I also find it somewhat hilarious that most people would recoil in horror at the idea of their taxes being raised by, say, Ł30 a month to directly fund the NHS... clearly having absolutely no idea how much private health insurance would be costing them if the NHS was gone (hint: it's a LOT more than Ł30 a month).

[Kizzy]

Great point TS has anyone wondered how they would fund a private healthcare policy...specifically if you had complex needs or a preexisting or congenital condition?
Not to mention extras like critical illness or cover if you were involved in an accident and unable to work for any length of time due to hospital stays and or rehabilitation.

So basically the fact that we all pay in IS our insurance for all that and more, I don't begrudge paying one little bit and can't comprehend why anyone would.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The NHS is one of the most efficient healthcare services in the world, though, and FAR more effecient than - for example - the insurance-based US system. This has been written about so many times that I have to assume anyone who still thinks that the NHS is (comparatively) inefficient is simply parroting what they've heard, rather than speaking from any knowledge of the actual running costs.

I also find it somewhat hilarious that most people would recoil in horror at the idea of their taxes being raised by, say, Ł30 a month to directly fund the NHS... clearly having absolutely no idea how much private health insurance would be costing them if the NHS was gone (hint: it's a LOT more than Ł30 a month).

Really strong points.
Something that should be very heavily thought about.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I didn't say you had, I asked you a question is all.

Maybe will the 10 billion squandered on useless IT systems could have bought a few buses... hey! they could have that one they wrote that lie on

Maybe we could save some of the cash we spend on benefits... you know, the unemployed who can afford to have Sky and take foreign holidays. We could stop sending foreign aid to countries who have a space programme... there's lots we can do. But we're talking about the way local authorities spend their money and not national party issues.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

Maybe we could save some of the cash we spend on benefits... you know, the unemployed who can afford to have Sky and take foreign holidays. We could stop sending foreign aid to countries who have a space programme... there's lots we can do. But we're talking about the way local authorities spend their money and not national party issues.

Ohai Daily Mail.

Tax loopholes and breaks cost us more than the benefits system ever will, it's just easier to blame the vulnerable parts of society, I guess.

[Mystic Mock]

Labour may exaggerate, but the Tories have slowly bit by bit tried to make the NHS look as incompetent as it possibly can be so that the public turns around and says they want rid of it, and after Brexit where we've now left our country's fate up in the air, it really wouldn't surprise me then to see most people not care about their own healthcare.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

new labour IS labour and loads of the new labour mps are still in power so wrggle all you like the last labour government were a disaster
your argument is very selective ask people who worked in the nhs under labour 1997 to 2010 endless bullying endless cover ups endless waste and middle management and absurd trusts and absurd targets and people thousands of people being starved to death and record levels of undiagnosed blood clots etc the list goes on and on...ask about all that? or do you only ask about stuff that fits your agends

And its the Blairites within the Labour party that have played the biggest hand in demonizing Corbyn and bringing about huge disruption within the party. The Blairites are just as neoliberal as May and so its crucial we never swap Corbyn for one of them.

You are complaining about the past with no real knowledge on present times.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/heal...-patients.html
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/a...the-nhs-crisis
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ers-worse.html.

The NHS never got better after Blair. “Relentless cuts” to the health service could be behind 30,000 deaths in 2015, argued researchers in two articles published in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7585001.html