[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You started by calling me a liar and don't backpedal now, you did say I was lying to further my own agenda. Choose your words better if you don't want to be called out on it.

I said that calling a 2nd trimester fetus "a bundle of cells" is a pretty (or white) lie used to make abortion easier/more palateable. That's what it is. I'm not backpedaling - I still think the same - I think some people are worried that these opinions will be used by pro-lifers to discourage abortion, which they might be, but I don't and never will agree with manipulating the narrative to suit the outcome.

Taking this and making it into "How dare you call me a liar!!" is just utterly bizarre... and I'm not sure how you can ever engage in an open debate if you think that everyone who thinks your opinion is incorrect is "calling you a liar". You've gotten emotional and aggressive here with really little if any reason, I personally have absolutely ZERO time for it right now, I'm not here for nor have I ever been part of any "TiBB wars" so keep that where it belongs please Dezzy. If you can't keep the debate civilized I have no idea why you're doing it at all, it seems exhausting.

Life begins when a life can support the basic act of living.

So to ask a question... is a parasitic organism (let's say a tapeworm) alive? By your definition it is not alive - it cannot support itself without a host body to feed off of. But that seems to me to be an odd suggestion, I don't know many people who would argue that parasites are not alive. I suppose that's also down to opinion though. I strongly disagree?

A first trimester fetus cannot support itself, by your own admission, a fetus can survive at 22 weeks BUT I looked it up last night, the chances of survival are low and without immediate medical attention, it's non-existent. Can you really say life begins then when most of the time, it'll result in the likely immediate death of the fetus? I consider life to begin when a baby can live outside of the womb without dying and for me. A baby can survive before that point, yes, but it's not common enough to make out that a 22 week fetus is the same as a full term baby.

Stating 'that's your opinion' is redundant, everything in this topic is an opinion but my opinion, like yours, is backed up by the same method of googling as you and it's just as valid as yours. You are splitting hairs again and it won't work.

I actually have a relatively wide knowledge of issues surrounding pregnancy and gestation that I didn't "google last night", but I have little reason nor desire to share those, because it's not really relevant. I'm not trying to "win" or "make anything work". I'm just debating, I'm not accusing you of anything, calling you a liar, or expecting anything other than for people to share their own opinions... as is the purpose of debate. I'm not interested whatsoever in this paranoid victim-narrative nonsense, kindly keep it away. Or I can just not engage at all, I suppose. Probably the better option?

Or I guess, we can play if you want, but not 'til the kids are back at school, I just don't have the time or energy .