[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Cherie

that's the problem though isn't it, it will be welcomed by another 17 million, the parties are really threading such a fine line not trying to alienate literally half the population, and that is why I think it will be given back to the public because no party wants to be associated with it as it will hurt them for decades, the other thing you would ask is why are leavers so afraid of a second vote? Leave might win by a bigger majority and it would finally put this bed if they won by a decent percentage.

It's not being afraid of another vote it's that the idea of keeping voting until you get the answer the losing side want is democratically abhorrant. It's wrong and had remain won the original vote I would still think it would be wrong to run the referendum again. When we have a general election we don't keep going and going, we accept the outcome, even when it isn't what we voted for and a new government is formed.

If you did that in sports no team or individual would ever win. England would play eternally for a cup they can never win. Oh yeah they do that anyway..

[bots]

The next big milestone will be on the acceptance/rejection of the plan by the EU. It may be one of these things that goes to the final hour before approval/no deal is reached. That would be the only time I see a ref being demanded now (with any degree of success) and by then it would be too late

[Livia]

I had lunch yesterday with one the chief of staff of the MPs I used to work with. It seems that Tory MPs are being inundated by constituents with letters and emails demanding May is removed, saying that the Checkers deal is deeply flawed and that they will not be voting Tory again until May steps down.

She's got to go... I'm sick of pussy-footing around the sneering Old-Boys club that is the EU. One in seven German cars manufactured are sold in the UK. We drink more champagne than the French... this isn't a one way thing. It's in Europe's interest, as well as our own, that we get a good deal but what we've had so far is a strutting, puffed up contempt from them.

I would not be against a 2nd referendum. But to go against a democratic vote is dangerous...

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jaxie

It's not being afraid of another vote it's that the idea of keeping voting until you get the answer the losing side want is democratically abhorrant. It's wrong and had remain won the original vote I would still think it would be wrong to run the referendum again. When we have a general election we don't keep going and going, we accept the outcome, even when it isn't what we voted for and a new government is formed.

If you did that in sports no team or individual would ever win. England would play eternally for a cup they can never win. Oh yeah they do that anyway..

Totally agree with this - it's about not giving out the wrong message to disgruntled voters, which there will always be, thinking if they make enough fuss they can get a public vote overturned. It would be the start of a slippery slope.

In the unlikely scenario that the remainers won the second vote it would undoubtedly be contested by the leavers in exactly the same way the remainers have done with the original vote. People could and would still plead ignorance as the whole thing is complicated. How could a third vote be refused when a second hadn't. Best of three would be the only fair and democratic route in that scenario.

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by jaxie

It's not being afraid of another vote it's that the idea of keeping voting until you get the answer the losing side want is democratically abhorrant. It's wrong and had remain won the original vote I would still think it would be wrong to run the referendum again. When we have a general election we don't keep going and going, we accept the outcome, even when it isn't what we voted for and a new government is formed.

If you did that in sports no team or individual would ever win. England would play eternally for a cup they can never win. Oh yeah they do that anyway..

That is not a good argument as the rules of the game are in place before the match starts and we then have two GE one after the other lol

I honestly couldn't care less at this stage what happens, so sick of it.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Cherie

That is not a good argument as the rules of the game are in place before the match starts and we then have two GE one after the other lol

I honestly couldn't care less at this stage what happens, so sick of it.

The rules of the vote were in place too. There were two choices. Since then people desperate to remain for reasons that are a mystery keep inventing types of leave. I keep seeing people say it's disaster, including you Cherie which again is a mystery because how can it be a disaster, nothing has happened, nothing has changed yet.

The only real disaster is a wishy washy appeaser of a PM.

All of it appears to be based on fear. Again a mystery. The world will not end if we stop all EU payments and go to wto rules. Sure it might be a bumpier ride than getting a nice free trade deal with the EU, but it's not a disaster either.

I think everyone is sick of the politics. They need to get on with it. In fact the political establishments gung ho attitude to the people of this country over the EU at the expense of our democracy is one of the reasons I voted leave in the first place.

[Ammi]

...hmmm I think why your sport analogy doesn’t quite work for me, Jaxie..?...is that people have a choice to go into competitive sport...it’s completely their choice to accept ‘the win or the lose’ thing...they can’t replay on and on as you say...until the acceptable result is had because they’ve chosen something which entails both by the nature of it...but with the EU referendum, having the referendum in the first place and ‘becoming a team player in the referendum’ with our votes, whichever way the individual vote was...wasn’t a choice the nation made...it was something enforced on us and many didn’t want that enforcing in the first place..so that has to be respected as well...as does the vote as it stands as Brexit..that the majority wanted it and to leave the EU...the rules weren’t entirely in place either by deciding on the referendum because if they were and they had been..?...all of these struggling negotiations wouldn’t be necessary...


...I’m not pro a 2nd referendum btw...even though I voted to remain in the EU and even though a 2nd vote may achieve that...I just think in the enormity of Brexit, that thing that isn’t going to be voted again after a term in office, type thing...that ‘forever’ thing...it would need to be led by someone who completely believes in it, someone who has great faith in it and always had...and that person is not Theresa May...so yeah, another worry atm...I mean it just makes sense that you have to have great belief in something so important for it to become successful for us all...that’s just such a basic thing...

[Ammi]

..I might of gone off topic there, sorry if I did...

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...hmmm I think why your sport analogy doesn’t quite work for me, Jaxie..?...is that people have a choice to go into competitive sport...it’s completely their choice to accept ‘the win or the lose’ thing...they can’t replay on and on as you say...until the acceptable result is had because they’ve chosen something which entails both by the nature of it...but with the EU referendum, having the referendum in the first place and ‘becoming a team player in the referendum’ with our votes, whichever way the individual vote was...wasn’t a choice the nation made...it was something enforced on us and many didn’t want that enforcing in the first place..so that has to be respected as well...as does the vote as it stands as Brexit..that the majority wanted it and to leave the EU...the rules weren’t entirely in place either by deciding on the referendum because if they were and they had been..?...all of these struggling negotiations wouldn’t be necessary...


...I’m not pro a 2nd referendum btw...even though I voted to remain in the EU and even though a 2nd vote may achieve that...I just think in the enormity of Brexit, that thing that isn’t going to be voted again after a term in office, type thing...that ‘forever’ thing...it would need to be led by someone who completely believes in it, someone who has great faith in it and always had...and that person is not Theresa May...so yeah, another worry atm...I mean it just makes sense that you have to have great belief in something so important for it to become successful for us all...that’s just such a basic thing...

The sports analogy was a bit of a joke as was the dig at England team. Maybe I should have added a laughing emoji.

The problem with appeasing or respecting those who didn't get what they wanted in the referendum is you end with a partial EU membership with no say. That isn't the leave that was voted for. Had remain won would people have expected to appease leave by partially leaving the EU? I don't think they would. People like Anna soubry would give a little laugh and say not likely, we voted to remain.

[bots]

Originally Posted by jaxie

The sports analogy was a bit of a joke as was the dig at England team. Maybe I should have added a laughing emoji.

The problem with appeasing or respecting those who didn't get what they wanted in the referendum is you end with a partial EU membership with no say. That isn't the leave that was voted for. Had remain won would people have expected to appease leave by partially leaving the EU? I don't think they would. People like Anna soubry would give a little laugh and say not likely, we voted to remain.

just out of interest Jaxie, as there are things brewing. What would be your position if it was proven that Russia had interfered with the vote to get a brexit result. Would you still say the result should stand? Or would you accept the vote as flawed?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

just out of interest Jaxie, as there are things brewing. What would be your position if it was proven that Russia had interfered with the vote to get a brexit result. Would you still say the result should stand? Or would you accept the vote as flawed?

The problem is that there would have to be convincing proof that any meddling affected the outcome of the vote and I can't see that kind of evidence coming forward. It would also have to be clear it wasnt some sort of remain plot.

There are compelling reasons why leaving is a good idea. It's not just some kind of immigration gripe as some would like to suggest.

I couldn't quite believe we won the vote. I would be unhappy if it was overturned. I genuinely believe leaving the EU is a good thing and will be good for this country. We have never really embraced the EU wholeheartedly. We are an independent people.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by jaxie

The sports analogy was a bit of a joke as was the dig at England team. Maybe I should have added a laughing emoji.

The problem with appeasing or respecting those who didn't get what they wanted in the referendum is you end with a partial EU membership with no say. That isn't the leave that was voted for. Had remain won would people have expected to appease leave by partially leaving the EU? I don't think they would. People like Anna soubry would give a little laugh and say not likely, we voted to remain.

...ah ok, I didn’t realise it was more a jokey type analogy, Jaxie...and no, you don’t have to use laughing emojis ...it didn’t feel jokey just because when another member questioned the analogy, you hadn’t said it was joke there...so I thought it was a serious analogy...


...hmmm I do see what you’re saying if it had been a Remain vote majority...I guess the assumption would have been that everything would just remain the same in staying in the EU....that’s what I assumed anyway...but maybe it wouldn’t have been that simple....because the referendum had already been put out there...so that in itself, the very questioning of the EU...may have caused a soft or hard Remain...a reaction from the EU...a kind of this is your punishment, type thing for criticising us, for calling the referendum in the first place....?...so there’s that as well to consider....what would have been the terms of Remain...I mean whichever way the vote flipped...there was always going to be opposition to a soft as oppose to a hard...the negotiations were always going to be gruelling and tough...so the person who led the country was always going to be so important and was always going to have to believe in the thing they were fighting for around those negotiating tables...sadly as we are Brexiting, I have no confidence in Theresa May to be THAT PERSON...it feels a bit of a ‘no win’ for both Remainers and many Brexiters atm...

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...ah ok, I didn’t realise it was more a jokey type analogy, Jaxie...and no, you don’t have to use laughing emojis ...it didn’t feel jokey just because when another member questioned the analogy, you hadn’t said it was joke there...so I thought it was a serious analogy...


...hmmm I do see what you’re saying if it had been a Remain vote majority...I guess the assumption would have been that everything would just remain the same in staying in the EU....that’s what I assumed anyway...but maybe it wouldn’t have been that simple....because the referendum had already been put out there...so that in itself, the very questioning of the EU...may have caused a soft or hard Remain...a reaction from the EU...a kind of this is your punishment, type thing for criticising us, for calling the referendum in the first place....?...so there’s that as well to consider....what would have been the terms of Remain...I mean whichever way the vote flipped...there was always going to be opposition to a soft as oppose to a hard...the negotiations were always going to be gruelling and tough...so the person who led the country was always going to be so important and was always going to have to believe in the thing they were fighting for around those negotiating tables...sadly as we are Brexiting, I have no confidence in Theresa May to be THAT PERSON...it feels a bit of a ‘no win’ for both Remainers and many Brexiters atm...

I didn't really realise that the sports analogy was being taken completely seriously until you as the second person remarked on it. I was just trying to lighten things up a bit and obviously failed.

I agree at the moment it feels like a no win situation and I don't rhink May is strong enough or committed enough to take us through a successful Brexit.

I'd be happy to leave and try to adopt an Canada or Japanese model, whichever was best suited.