[Livia]

Firstly, terf is a bull**** term I do not recognise.

Secondly, here we are again. A trans woman insisting she's the same as a born woman, and she's not. She grew up as a man, a white man... with all that privilege that follows. Now, when she's chosen to be a transwoman, she still thinks the world should listen, because that's what happened when she was a man. Am I the only one who's noticed that male to female trans people are the ones who crusade, who single themselves out... while female to male trans people just get on with their lives, they seem more able to cope with hostility because when they were women, they were used to it.

I do not recognise India as a woman who is the same as me. She is not. She is a transwoman. Equal to me, worth as much, just as entitled to be happy... but not the same.

[Katty24]

Originally Posted by Livia

Firstly, terf is a bull**** term I do not recognise.

Secondly, here we are again. A trans woman insisting she's the same as a born woman, and she's not. She grew up as a man, a white man... with all that privilege that follows. Now, when she's chosen to be a transwoman, she still thinks the world should listen, because that's what happened when she was a man. Am I the only one who's noticed that male to female trans people are the ones who crusade, who single themselves out... while female to male trans people just get on with their lives, they seem more able to cope with hostility because when they were women, they were used to it.

I do not recognise India as a woman who is the same as me. She is not. She is a transwoman. Equal to me, worth as much, just as entitled to be happy... but not the same.

Well said. I agree with all of that including her growing up as a white male and the high expectations of doing so. A good case of me, me, me ... in my opinion. She never will be the same as those born and raised as women and their different life experiences, however hard she tries.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Katty24

Well said. I agree with all of that including her growing up as a white male and the high expectations of doing so. A good case of me, me, me ... in my opinion. She never will be the same as those born and raised as women and their different life experiences, however hard she tries.

Hi Katty, nice to see a new face in Serious Debates. Welcome.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Livia

Firstly, terf is a bull**** term I do not recognise.

Secondly, here we are again. A trans woman insisting she's the same as a born woman, and she's not. She grew up as a man, a white man... with all that privilege that follows. Now, when she's chosen to be a transwoman, she still thinks the world should listen, because that's what happened when she was a man. Am I the only one who's noticed that male to female trans people are the ones who crusade, who single themselves out... while female to male trans people just get on with their lives, they seem more able to cope with hostility because when they were women, they were used to it.

I do not recognise India as a woman who is the same as me. She is not. She is a transwoman. Equal to me, worth as much, just as entitled to be happy... but not the same.

You are fair enough to argue that a transwoman (such as India) grew up as a "white man" (at least, from an outside perspective), and yes the experiences of womanhood are different. Arguing otherwise is just ignoring reality, really.

The difference though, and you're free to disagree, is that someone like India did not grow up in "full" white male privilege. She was forced to conceal her gender identity in an intolerant society, and around 40% of trans women have attempted suicide, with far more experiencing depression and other mental health issues due to gender dysphoria. Therefore, I would argue that trans women have pretty first-hand experience due to their gender expression, and the struggle of women & transpeople is certainly comparable.

Trans women should be seen as a woman for those reasons, alongside their self-identification, and enjoy full rights in society and under the law as women. The reason I find TERFs disgusting is that they seem to disregard transgender people's struggles and oppression, and they ultimately see trans women as just "men in dresses" or some kind of imposter.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

You are fair enough to argue that a transwoman (such as India) grew up as a "white man" (at least, from an outside perspective), and yes the experiences of womanhood are different. Arguing otherwise is just ignoring reality, really.

The difference though, and you're free to disagree, is that someone like India did not grow up in "full" white male privilege. She was forced to conceal her gender identity in an intolerant society, and around 40% of trans women have attempted suicide, with far more experiencing depression and other mental health issues due to gender dysphoria. Therefore, I would argue that trans women have pretty first-hand experience due to their gender expression, and the struggle of women & transpeople is certainly comparable.

Trans women should be seen as a woman for those reasons, alongside their self-identification, and enjoy full rights in society and under the law as women. The reason I find TERFs disgusting is that they seem to disregard transgender people's struggles and oppression, and they ultimately see trans women as just "men in dresses" or some kind of imposter.

You don't know India's life when she was a successful white male, so you're not qualified to reach the conclusion that her experience is comparable to being a "real" woman. Nor can my perception be changed by the fact that some people who face transsexuality suffer depression. I sympathise, but I don't believe their depression will end by insisting everyone pretends they are exactly the same as those of us born as women.

You may have seen in my post that I have nothing at all against transsexual women. But they are just that, trans women. They are not the same as me. And like I said, although they are worth as much and are just as entitled to be happy and to full rights under the law as you have mentioned, they are not women in the sense that I am. I hope India has wonderful life. I wish her no ill will. But she is different from me.

Women have been oppressed for centuries. And just as we're getting some kind of equality, men are dictating to us what we should call ourselves, and that any man who identifies as a woman should be regarded as one.

I have never seen a female to male transsexual crusade on the telly, or anywhere else, insisting that they are "real men". And I believe that is because men are used to being heard and demanding things.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Livia

You don't know India's life when she was a successful white male, so you're not qualified to reach the conclusion that her experience is comparable to being a "real" woman. Nor can my perception be changed by the fact that some people who face transsexuality suffer depression. I sympathise, but I don't believe their depression will end by insisting everyone pretends they are exactly the same as those of us born as women.

You may have seen in my post that I have nothing at all against transsexual women. But they are just that, trans women. They are not the same as me. And like I said, although they are worth as much and are just as entitled to be happy and to full rights under the law as you have mentioned, they are not women in the sense that I am. I hope India has wonderful life. I wish her no ill will. But she is different from me.

Women have been oppressed for centuries. And just as we're getting some kind of equality, men are dictating to us what we should call ourselves, and that any man who identifies as a woman should be regarded as one.

I have never seen a female to male transsexual crusade on the telly, or anywhere else, insisting that they are "real men". And I believe that is because men are used to being heard and demanding things.

Your logic’s wasted on some 17-year-old kid who skips work because “it’s not his fault the job’s boring.” I hear you still.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Redway

Your logic’s wasted on some 17-year-old kid who skips work because “it’s not his fault the job’s boring.” I hear you still.

Hey Red...nice to see you x

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Secondly, here we are again. A trans woman insisting she's the same as a born woman, and she's not.

Tbf, she hasn't done that at all.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Tbf, she hasn't done that at all.

With respect, Marshy... she spent her whole time in the BB house saying "I'm a REAL woman!".

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

With respect, Marshy... she spent her whole time in the BB house saying "I'm a REAL woman!".

We're discussing this debate though in which, quite the opposite to her usual self, India was calm and reasonable in her responses.

I didn't watch most of that series so I can't comment.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

We're discussing this debate though in which, quite the opposite to her usual self, India was calm and reasonable in her responses.

I didn't watch most of that series so I can't comment.

Well, as this isn't a court and I can take previous behaviour into account to inform my judgement, she DID spend the whole time wailing that she's a REAL woman and got very upset when a much younger man didn't want to kiss her... assuming it was because she's transsexual when in actuality it may well have been because she was too old for him. Even India herself said toward the end of her stint that she had played it all wrong. And she wasn't calm and reasonable, she interrupted constantly.

And yes, she was quite calm and reasonable. But then when she was a man she had a career in broadcast television.

One thing I've noticed... it's quite telling that the strongest posts, with the worst slurs against the "feminist", are from men.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Well, as this isn't a court and I can take previous behaviour into account to inform my judgement

Yes, you can, but again, the comment was directed at this debate where she did no such thing.

Originally Posted by Livia

Even India herself said toward the end of her stint that she had played it all wrong. And she wasn't calm and reasonable, she interrupted constantly.

Key word being "played", it would be hard to tell how much was typical BB housemate theatrics to get attention and how much was genuine.

Secondly, I didn't say she was calm and reasonable in the house, hence why I stated I didn't watch all of her time in the BB house.

Originally Posted by Livia

And yes, she was quite calm and reasonable. But then when she was a man she had a career in broadcast television.

I don't think in this instance it's got anything to do with it. Man or woman in broadcast television would be media trained well enough to hold a civil televised debate.