[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Liam-

No, predators are dangerous to vulnerable women, it’s got nothing to do with their gender, being a man, doesn’t make someone dangerous, a predator can be a man or a woman

Define 'vulnerable women'.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I... literally didn’t say that at all though, but what I did say, which is that the principle of the two arguments are based off of the same idea, I’ll 100% stand by

You inferred the thought processes are the same then. You can back track all you like but it's obvious what you meant.

[Jordan.]

[Cherie]

Are the little ladies now been told we don’t know what we are standing up against...what next

[Beso]

https://youtu.be/IOf6ursZ0FA



Funny.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Jordan.

She's made it abundantly clear that she isn't...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by parmnion

https://youtu.be/IOf6ursZ0FA



Funny.

You can tell how uncomfortable she is about the entire line of debate and that's most likely not because it makes her angry that this is a question, it's not because she can't formulate an answer or a discussion point at least about it... it's because she's absolutely terrified that no matter how good her intentions are, she might "say the wrong thing" ... and that is absolutely huge. A serious, serious problem.

[Beso]

Indeed it is TS. Indeed it is.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by toy soldier

you can tell how uncomfortable she is about the entire line of debate and that's most likely not because it makes her angry that this is a question, it's not because she can't formulate an answer or a discussion point at least about it... It's because she's absolutely terrified that no matter how good her intentions are, she might "say the wrong thing" ... And that is absolutely huge. A serious, serious problem.

hence you end up with men winning in womens sports

its like the emperors new clothes

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

hence you end up with men winning in womens sports

its like the emperors new clothes

I get people not understanding that there's such a big difference in physicality between biological males and females... asking for it to be considered and studied and looked into as a possibility... even trying to find further ways to genuinely make it a level playing field somehow if it's something they believe in. Each to their own on all of that, honestly, if it was possible then ... sure why not. If in 100 years (if we're not radioactive dust obvz) they develop nanites that can completely rebuild a human body and people want to switch genders and play sports, then yes go for it.

What I don't understand and find utterly baffling is people actually seeing with their own eyes, individuals who are twice the size of every other competetor lifting twice the weight anyone else in the contest can over their head... outswimming the next fastest by a full length of a pool... causing serious injuries in combat and contact sports... and STILL say "this is fine there isn't a problem here".

But they do. They'll watch a 6'2, 250lb trans woman win an olympic gold, turn around and look you square in the eye, and say "no that person did not have an unfair advantage".

But they must know it isn't true. They simply MUST. Logically, it's undeniable. It's like having someone look you in the face and say "Hello there - I am either lying or stupid and I'm fine with everyone knowing that."

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I get people not understanding that there's such a big difference in physicality between biological males and females... asking for it to be considered and studied and looked into as a possibility... even trying to find further ways to genuinely make it a level playing field somehow if it's something they believe in. Each to their own on all of that, honestly, if it was possible then ... sure why not. If in 100 years (if we're not radioactive dust obvz) they develop nanites that can completely rebuild a human body and people want to switch genders and play sports, then yes go for it.

What I don't understand and find utterly baffling is people actually seeing with their own eyes, individuals who are twice the size of every other competetor lifting twice the weight anyone else in the contest can over their head... outswimming the next fastest by a full length of a pool... causing serious injuries in combat and contact sports... and STILL say "this is fine there isn't a problem here".

But they do. They'll watch a 6'2, 250lb trans woman win an olympic gold, turn around and look you square in the eye, and say "no that person did not have an unfair advantage".

But they must know it isn't true. They simply MUST. Logically, it's undeniable. It's like having someone look you in the face and say "Hello there - I am either lying or stupid and I'm fine with everyone knowing that."

It's because they think transwomen are women. Pesky things like reality and physiological differences between the two sexes aren't as important as feelings...

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Define 'vulnerable women'.

Vulnerable Adult Human Female

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I get people not understanding that there's such a big difference in physicality between biological males and females... asking for it to be considered and studied and looked into as a possibility... even trying to find further ways to genuinely make it a level playing field somehow if it's something they believe in. Each to their own on all of that, honestly, if it was possible then ... sure why not. If in 100 years (if we're not radioactive dust obvz) they develop nanites that can completely rebuild a human body and people want to switch genders and play sports, then yes go for it.

What I don't understand and find utterly baffling is people actually seeing with their own eyes, individuals who are twice the size of every other competetor lifting twice the weight anyone else in the contest can over their head... outswimming the next fastest by a full length of a pool... causing serious injuries in combat and contact sports... and STILL say "this is fine there isn't a problem here".

But they do. They'll watch a 6'2, 250lb trans woman win an olympic gold, turn around and look you square in the eye, and say "no that person did not have an unfair advantage".

But they must know it isn't true. They simply MUST. Logically, it's undeniable. It's like having someone look you in the face and say "Hello there - I am either lying or stupid and I'm fine with everyone knowing that."

There is no way if someone was writing out homophobic slurs, that you would reply with the same sincerity you're treating the purposefully offensive slurs against the trans community. I don't disagree with what you've written here, by the way.

If folks were using arse bandit/dykes there would instantly be a price to pay, but call trans women blokes, and the they are treated as though they re making a well throughout response.

It's the completely uneven playing field that makes these debates so toxic imo.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

There is no way if someone was writing out homophobic slurs, that you would reply with the same sincerity you're treating the purposefully offensive slurs against the trans community. I don't disagree with what you've written here, by the way.

If folks were using arse bandit/dykes there would instantly be a price to pay, but call trans women blokes, and the they are treated as though they re making a well throughout response.

It's the completely uneven playing field that makes these debates so toxic imo.

It isn't the same thing though Slim, "bloke" isn't a slur like the ones you've mentioned. transwomen are biologically men and transmen are biologically women, that is reality not a slur. I understand the want to be polite and respectful and to not want to hurt peoples feelings by pointing this out but it's gotten to a point where it needs to be pointed out when you've got people like Lia Thomas taking the absolute piss out of the actual female swimmers in their competitions. When you have men claiming to be transwomen in order to serve their sentences in female prisons, when you have flashers walking in to female only spa areas flashing their male genitals at women and little girls etc

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It isn't the same thing though Slim, "bloke" isn't a slur like the ones you've mentioned. transwomen are biologically men and transmen are biologically women, that is reality not a slur. I understand the want to be polite and respectful and to not want to hurt peoples feelings by pointing this out but it's gotten to a point where it needs to be pointed out when you've got people like Lia Thomas taking the absolute piss out of the actual female swimmers in their competitions. When you have men claiming to be transwomen in order to serve their sentences in female prisons, when you have flashers walking in to female only spa areas flashing their male genitals at women and little girls etc

There have been times when all of the slurs we now understand to be slurs, were not considered slurs.

If you're a transwoman, then it will absolutely be considered and more importantly, it will feel like a slur. Calling trans women blokes (as an example) is used only to belittle and minimise.

This is where sports and bathrooms become the dominant issue again. I agree with your points, but a few examples aren't representative for the experiences of the trans community. It just isn't. Like I said in my previous posts in this thread, there will be absolutely horrendous incidents that spring up from this new reality, and they will be indefensible even by the strongest trans advocates, in the same way that gay people can do horrendous things or us heteros can murder our families etc. It doesn't suddenly make every hetero husband a family annihilator.

There is a reason that this debate narrowly focusses on very limited issues, and that is because they have the widest appeal to generally good and right-minded people.

[arista]

Originally Posted by parmnion

https://youtu.be/IOf6ursZ0FA



Funny.

Yes GBnewsHD
has used this
showing how Crazy the Labour Party is.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

There is no way if someone was writing out homophobic slurs, that you would reply with the same sincerity you're treating the purposefully offensive slurs against the trans community. I don't disagree with what you've written here, by the way.

If folks were using arse bandit/dykes there would instantly be a price to pay, but call trans women blokes, and the they are treated as though they re making a well throughout response.

It's the completely uneven playing field that makes these debates so toxic imo.

This has a slightly complex and I have to admit pretty murky answer to be honest. The first part of it is that ... it's TiBB so yes I probably overlook pointed comments that I wouldn't elsewhere.

The second is that I think the sports issue is incredibly shaky. There's money in it. There are lucrative scholarships in it. There are opportunities to attend top universities in the US that simply would not be available by any other means than through a sports promgramme. I'm aware that there are genuine trans people who, rightly or wrongly, just want to still be able to compete in a sport (with my stance being that it's not possible due to the biological advantage). However - because it's money, fame, success, opportunity - I am staight up 100% positive that a proportion of those purporting to be trans in order to succeed in a sport they were only middling at as a male, are not women by any definition, they're abusing the system and making a mockery of genuine trans people for personal gain. I don't even consider this a suspicion - I consider it to be an outright certainty.

And I think the people who say "lol no one would do that" don't understand the stakes involved/how far people will go for glory and recognition/human nature in general.

The same goes for the issue of women's prisons and "no one would pretend to be trans to get into a different jail". Yes they would. Either with nefarious intent or to avoid male prison. They just... ... would. There are already examples.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

There have been times when all of the slurs we now understand to be slurs, were not considered slurs.

If you're a transwoman, then it will absolutely be considered and more importantly, it will feel like a slur. Calling trans women blokes (as an example) is used only to belittle and minimise.

This is where sports and bathrooms become the dominant issue again. I agree with your points, but a few examples aren't representative for the experiences of the trans community. It just isn't. Like I said in my previous posts in this thread, there will be absolutely horrendous incidents that spring up from this new reality, and they will be indefensible even by the strongest trans advocates, in the same way that gay people can do horrendous things or us heteros can murder our families etc. It doesn't suddenly make every hetero husband a family annihilator.

There is a reason that this debate narrowly focusses on very limited issues, and that is because they have the widest appeal to generally good and right-minded people.

The thing with not being allowed call transwomen men and considering that a slur means that you can never question a persons motive for saying they're trans, you have rapists being referred to as women which is wildly inappropriate and you end up with sex based statistics being skewed and meaningless

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...omplained.html

I'm sorry Slim but I can't agree that women and girls should give up safe guards that are already in law and were hard fought for a "new reality" and just accept that we women and girls are the acceptable collateral damage of this.

The debate focuses on the issues that will negatively effect women and girls because those are the issues we're concerned about.

As a side note, I do appreciate someone on the other "side" actually engaging in a proper debate about this, maybe if the whole thing started out this way we wouldn't be in the hostile positions we are in now towards each other (not you and I but in general)

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The thing with not being allowed call transwomen men and considering that a slur means that you can never question a persons motive for saying they're trans, you have rapists being referred to as women which is wildly inappropriate and you end up with sex based statistics being skewed and meaningless

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...omplained.html

I'm sorry Slim but I can't agree that women and girls should give up safe guards that are already in law and were hard fought for a "new reality" and just accept that we women and girls are the acceptable collateral damage of this.

The debate focuses on the issues that will negatively effect women and girls because those are the issues we're concerned about.

As a side note, I do appreciate someone on the other "side" actually engaging in a proper debate about this, maybe if the whole thing started out this way we wouldn't be in the hostile positions we are in now towards each other (not you and I but in general)

That's fair. I don't expect everyone to see everything in exactly the same way. I know you're coming from a genuine and good place, we just both think that the other has it a little wrong. Nothing terrible about that.

I do think there are a couple of discrepancies in the labelling of trans women (in particular) that we see on here as an example. The kind of person I'm referring to, isn't worried about having a discussion about the way to move forward and create a environment that both alleviates the fears of folks like you or Kizzy, and also of trans women. I can show that pretty definitively imo simply by pointing out that they're not even interested in using trans women as a descriptor, it's straight to the minimisation of men/blokes. That's how you know, and that's why I worry about having bigots as allies for women from both sides. From your perspective it should be clear that you're being used, and from my perspective, if bigots and women are teaming up, then it lays the ground for complete radicalisation against a minority group.

Ultimately, as humans with rights they deserve to be integrated into society without prejudice, so my only concern is how we go about that.

I appreciate your last paragraph too. From my own perspective, it's such a complex issue, that I've had to work out exactly where I stood on the matter before I could even begin to explain that to others, so I've always avoided these threads.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This has a slightly complex and I have to admit pretty murky answer to be honest. The first part of it is that ... it's TiBB so yes I probably overlook pointed comments that I wouldn't elsewhere.

The second is that I think the sports issue is incredibly shaky. There's money in it. There are lucrative scholarships in it. There are opportunities to attend top universities in the US that simply would not be available by any other means than through a sports promgramme. I'm aware that there are genuine trans people who, rightly or wrongly, just want to still be able to compete in a sport (with my stance being that it's not possible due to the biological advantage). However - because it's money, fame, success, opportunity - I am staight up 100% positive that a proportion of those purporting to be trans in order to succeed in a sport they were only middling at as a male, are not women by any definition, they're abusing the system and making a mockery of genuine trans people for personal gain. I don't even consider this a suspicion - I consider it to be an outright certainty.

And I think the people who say "lol no one would do that" don't understand the stakes involved/how far people will go for glory and recognition/human nature in general.

The same goes for the issue of women's prisons and "no one would pretend to be trans to get into a different jail". Yes they would. Either with nefarious intent or to avoid male prison. They just... ... would. There are already examples.

Again, completely fair. There are folks (and I'm sure some of us know their kind IRL), that if any opportunity to benefit arises in whatever situation, they'll take it. Whether it's money/sex or anything else, so i don't doubt that these people exist. I'm not sure they exist to the degree it is assumed they might, but only time will tell.

My only point, was the ease and acceptance with which we treat anti-trans bigotry, versus all other kinds. I don't mean that you're the bigot here, either, let me just make that clear. It's pretty obvious you're coming from a place of discussion.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

That's fair. I don't expect everyone to see everything in exactly the same way. I know you're coming from a genuine and good place, we just both think that the other has it a little wrong. Nothing terrible about that.

I do think there are a couple of discrepancies in the labelling of trans women (in particular) that we see on here as an example. The kind of person I'm referring to, isn't worried about having a discussion about the way to move forward and create a environment that both alleviates the fears of folks like you or Kizzy, and also of trans women. I can show that pretty definitively imo simply by pointing out that they're not even interested in using trans women as a descriptor, it's straight to the minimisation of men/blokes. That's how you know, and that's why I worry about having bigots as allies for women from both sides. From your perspective it should be clear that you're being used, and from my perspective, if bigots and women are teaming up, then it lays the ground for complete radicalisation against a minority group.

Ultimately, as humans with rights they deserve to be integrated into society without prejudice, so my only concern is how we go about that.

I appreciate your last paragraph too. From my own perspective, it's such a complex issue, that I've had to work out exactly where I stood on the matter before I could even begin to explain that to others, so I've always avoided these threads.

Re the bolded section :
It's an interesting point of view, I see how you could have come to that conclusion and I won't deny that there are absolutely people on my "side" who are speaking about this with different motivations, equally I could say to you that a lot of the people speaking out on this issue on your side (not even actual trans people themselves) are guiding and pushing things in a certain way because they are misogynists and want to silence and put women in their place, they want excuses to be able to threaten and insult women and still be seen as the good guys, I could say they're taking advantage of people's good nature and desire for inclusivity by comparing it to an issue with a bad past like the gay rights movement even though they're really completely different things and in actual fact contradict what the gay rights movement was actually for ie Same sex Attraction, it's now same "gender" attraction

[Oliver_W]

I don't really get why transpeople's delusions (for wa t of better word) get pandered to so much, especially when it comes at the expense of women's rights.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Again, completely fair. There are folks (and I'm sure some of us know their kind IRL), that if any opportunity to benefit arises in whatever situation, they'll take it. Whether it's money/sex or anything else, so i don't doubt that these people exist. I'm not sure they exist to the degree it is assumed they might, but only time will tell.

My only point, was the ease and acceptance with which we treat anti-trans bigotry, versus all other kinds. I don't mean that you're the bigot here, either, let me just make that clear. It's pretty obvious you're coming from a place of discussion.

weeeeeelllllll I think you'll find that women are a fair target here as well, there's quite a bit of misogynistic slurs that are fired around and celebrated when this topic is being discussed not to mention the threats are much more often directed at women who disagree with the "TRA" side

[LukeB]

Originally Posted by Jordan.

Got me thinking how a lot of people who speak on women rights do not agree with JK Rowling and the ones who do agree with JK Rowling are men who are anti woke (even though they are obsessed with woke) and are anti trans/feminist

[Crimson Dynamo]

Youtube video

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LukeB

Got me thinking how a lot of people who speak on women rights do not agree with JK Rowling and the ones who do agree with JK Rowling are men who are anti woke (even though they are obsessed with woke) and are anti trans/feminist

Plenty of people who speak on womens rights do agree with JK Rowling though