[Gusto Brunt]

I have to say I cried when I saw that lifeless baby being pulled out of the rubble of a house.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Denver

The problem is the West refuse to look into the history, how can Israel reclaim land that was never theirs to reclaim?

Sure
that's a battle going on
for some time now

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Denver

The problem is the West refuse to look into the history, how can Israel reclaim land that was never theirs to reclaim?

i suggest just the first few minutes may help you..

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Denver

Its terrible for the civilians not the government

Indeed, IMO there simply is no morally right side to take in this conflict politically. It's a MESS, it's been a mess for the better part of a century. The only victims in this are not "Palestine" or "Israel", they are the civilians from both countries who are suffering because of machinations they have no control over.

There's elements of that in every war and it has always been thus... however, in this, far more than most.

And the social media disinformation and "side taking" doesn't help matters... as well as being inappropriate, and crass to the point of being disgusting. Infested with the usual banal, shallow tribalism completely devoid of any hint of consideration or compassion.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

Indeed, IMO there simply is no morally right side to take in this conflict politically. It's a MESS, it's been a mess for the better part of a century. The only victims in this are not "Palestine" or "Israel", they are the civilians from both countries who are suffering because of machinations they have no control over.

There's elements of that in every war and it has always been thus... however, in this, far more than most.

And the social media disinformation and "side taking" doesn't help matters... as well as being inappropriate, and crass to the point of being disgusting. Infested with the usual banal, shallow tribalism completely devoid of any hint of consideration or compassion.

you either wash your hands of it or you take a side in any war. Thats the way of war

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

you either wash your hands of it or you take a side in any war. Thats the way of war

I fundamentally reject this statement as anti-intellectual claptrap, sorry BOTS. It is absolutely possible to observe any conflict (be that between two of your pals or two world powers) from an as-objective-as-possible analytical standpoint whilst still empathising with anyone caught up in the carnage through no fault of their own.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

you either wash your hands of it or you take a side in any war. Thats the way of war

It's the normal, human response.

[Nicky91]

meanwhile in Netherlands, in Urk to be more specific

https://nltimes.nl/2023/10/11/israel...homes-set-fire

Nearly two dozen Israeli flags were collected and set on fire in Urk overnight, the police confirmed to NL Times. The municipality of Urk said that the flags were taken from homes and set alight next to De Poort church, a Reformed Protestant Church.

“Many people in our municipality feel connected with the people in Israel, so they are hanging flags on their houses,” a spokesperson for Urk told NL Times on Wednesday. “Last night, about 20 Israeli flags were taken down, collected, and burned next to a church.”

“We have indeed received reports about Israeli flags set on fire in Urk,” a spokesperson for the police said. Police officers were working in the neighborhoods where the incidents happened to collect more information and to give victims an opportunity to press charges.

Police were also notified about a video going viral online showing someone stomping on an Israeli flag while removing it from the front of someone’s home. Anyone with video, images, or information related to the investigation should contact police, a spokesperson told NL Times. No arrests have been made, and police did not release a description of anyone suspected of involvement.

The spokesperson for Urk said that they had not yet decided whether to press charges as a municipality, or to leave it to the individual households. She said the Israeli flag was also hoisted at the Urk City Hall building, where it will remain for the week. That flag was not taken down and burned at the De Poort church with the others. The debris was cleaned up by the municipality.

The spokesperson said she does not know if that church was chosen for a reason or if it was random. The Bethelkerk, a church connected to De Poort church, was scheduled to host an event Wednesday evening called “Urk Sings for Israel.”

[Nicky91]

as for stranded dutch tourists in Israel

https://nltimes.nl/2023/10/11/defens...e-israel-today

Dutch people in Israel will be repatriated from Wednesday. A Defense plane will pick them up on Wednesday and likely a KLM plane on Thursday, said Foreign Minister Hanke Bruins Slot. About 200 people are provisionally eligible for evacuation.

Dutch people in Israel who wanted to leave the country after Saturday’s terrorist attack and the subsequent violence have so far had to rely on themselves. But “in recent days, it has proven increasingly difficult to book a flight home,” Bruins Slot said. Therefore, she decided to “facilitate the repatriation” of Dutch school pupils, students, and other travelers in danger of being stranded in Israel.

A military flight will leave Eindhoven on Wednesday to pick up Dutch people, Minister Kajsa Ollongren (Defense) said. The aircraft will likely return to Eindhoven. If circumstances permit, a KLM charter will follow on Thursday. “It is very nice that both Defense and KLM have shown themselves so willing,” said Bruins Slot.

KLM emphasized that the safety of the crew and passengers always comes first and is, therefore, cautious. “Ultimately, the current safety situation will determine whether the flight is actually carried out,” a spokesperson said.

An Airbus A330 from the Multinational Multirole Tanker Transport (MRTT) Unit, which is stationed at Eindhoven air base, will be used for the military flight. The aircraft can accommodate 267 passengers and 45 tons of cargo. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs will inventory how many people with a Dutch passport want to use this option, the Ministry reported.

It is a first flight, Ministers Bruins Slot and Ollongren wrote to parliament. They are investigating whether more military and civilian flights can be used after this.

they were being brought home today as we speak, there were still many hundreds of tourists trapped in Israel

[bots]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I fundamentally reject this statement as anti-intellectual claptrap, sorry BOTS. It is absolutely possible to observe any conflict (be that between two of your pals or two world powers) from an as-objective-as-possible analytical standpoint whilst still empathising with anyone caught up in the carnage through no fault of their own.

with respect take a look at history. I don't go with pseudo intellectual clap trap

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

with respect take a look at history.

Take a look at what in history? It's not "pseudo-intellectual" to try to take an objective view of war, it's literally academic, and what the entire study of history is about. The idea that you have to "pick a side 'til it's over" before you can have a proper look at the political nuance involved is emotive garbage.

[Nicky91]

i agree with SB here


both sides have innocent victims



Hamas are evil scum yup, can't argue against that


but i personally don't think bombing the hell out of Gaza is the smartest thing to do from Israel, you'd know you also cause a lot of collateral damage like that, rather than precision attacks (tbh that is what the Mossad used to be very good at)

not all palestinians are hamas militants



and also cutting Gaza off from food, water supplies, like what the **** that is seriously unethical towards the innocents living there


what the EU says too, Israel has a right to defend itself, with counter attacks, but cutting Gaza off from food, water and medical supplies shouldn't be allowed

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Denver

There is no physical evidence that 250 people were killed out the festival alone

No evidence of rape

No evidence of murdered babies

And the mother of the girl has a complete different story to the IDF

so they bulldozed and paraglided in to do what exactly>
There is also a Jewish woman who was told by Hamas they had no intention of killing her

The IDF are known to lie and I dont trust their statements nor do I trust the statements of Hamas

so they bulldozed and paraglided in to do what exactly? what was the intention?

[Cherie]

For the record I dont agree with cutting off vital supplies to civilians but Hamas are the key to starting this

[bots]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

Take a look at what in history? It's not "pseudo-intellectual" to try to take an objective view of war, it's literally academic, and what the entire study of history is about. The idea that you have to "pick a side 'til it's over" before you can have a proper look at the political nuance involved is emotive garbage.

what do you think Nato is? It is a side already picked. Do you think any Nato country is going to join Russia and attack Ukraine.

The world is based around partners you can trust .... taking a side

[Denver]

Originally Posted by Cherie

so they bulldozed and paraglided in to do what exactly? what was the intention?

Just because they forced their way in and killed people doesn't make all the facts true especially when the facts were told by the enemy

[Denver]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

what do you think Nato is? It is a side already picked. Do you think any Nato country is going to join Russia and attack Ukraine.

The world is based around partners you can trust .... taking a side

The same Nato where tensions are intensifying between 2 of the nations?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Denver

Just because they forced their way in and killed people doesn't make all the facts true especially when the facts were told by the enemy

pretty sure Hamas have themselves posted clips of carnage?

[Cherie]

Are you saying this is a lie

An Israeli grandmother was murdered by Hamas terrorists with her killers posting it on her own Facebook account, her family has said.

Describing her as “pure and good”, the unnamed woman’s granddaughter Mor Bayder claimed the horrifying videos were shared publicly on social media, reportedly showing the elderly woman being slaughtered in her own home.

“A terrorist came home to her, killed her, took her phone, filmed the horror and published it on her Facebook wall,” Ms Bayder said. “This is how we found out.”

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...0ee631b8&ei=11

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

what do you think Nato is? It is a side already picked. Do you think any Nato country is going to join Russia and attack Ukraine.

The world is based around partners you can trust .... taking a side

What does NATO and any country's global political maneuvering have to do with an individual's opinion of a conflict or war in general? What does it have to do with individually "taking a side"? Unless you're suggesting that there's some patriotic necessity for individual opinion - or even mass public approval - to be on the same side as a nation's global political decision-making by default?

They are ENTIRELY separate discussions and, in fact, my opinion on the outcome that would be best for global stability has really nothing at all to do with any moral assessment of how a conflict has started. If Israel doesn't win this conflict and return to relative stability fairly quickly, from a western perspective (which I do indeed selfishly have to take, being a family man living in the west) we're in a very bad situation.

That has no bearing at all on any objective moral right or wrong in the situation.

Hamas is an organisation of religious extremists who have used unthinkable terrorist tactics.

Israel has increasingly become an apartheid borderline fascist state (also packed to the gills with religious ideology/a clear philosophy of supremacy) that has mistreated Palestine abysmally.

Everyone is free to believe differently, if they happen to believe differently, but no one "has to" support either by pretending anything else.

[arista]

Sadly,
17 Britons missing in Israel

SkyNewsHD reports

[arista]

[arista]

[Hamas has this afternoon launched
a fresh wave of rocket attacks across southern Israel,
including a child development centre,
even as Gaza holds its breath with
Israel's Defence Forces massing hundreds of
thousands of troops on its border.

Shocking images and videos out of
Israel's southern city of Ashkelon purportedly
showed how the Child Development wing of
the Barzilai Medical Centre suffered a direct hit
which reduced parts of the building to rubble.

A spokeswoman for the
centre said: ''The child development centre at
the Barzilai hospital in Ashkelon suffered
a direct hit by a projectile from Gaza,'
while Deputy Director Dr. Gili Givati told
Israeli public radio: 'The development centre was
completely destroyed.']

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...st-terror.html

[bots]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

What does NATO and any country's global political maneuvering have to do with an individual's opinion of a conflict or war in general? What does it have to do with individually "taking a side"? Unless you're suggesting that there's some patriotic necessity for individual opinion - or even mass public approval - to be on the same side as a nation's global political decision-making by default?

They are ENTIRELY separate discussions and, in fact, my opinion on the outcome that would be best for global stability has really nothing at all to do with any moral assessment of how a conflict has started. If Israel doesn't win this conflict and return to relative stability fairly quickly, from a western perspective (which I do indeed selfishly have to take, being a family man living in the west) we're in a very bad situation.

That has no bearing at all on any objective moral right or wrong in the situation.

Hamas is an organisation of religious extremists who have used unthinkable terrorist tactics.

Israel has increasingly become an apartheid borderline fascist state (also packed to the gills with religious ideology/a clear philosophy of supremacy) that has mistreated Palestine abysmally.

Everyone is free to believe differently, if they happen to believe differently, but no one "has to" support either by pretending anything else.

You are too young to have experienced the UK at war. I experienced the Falklands war in my 20's. We all patriotically supported our country as individuals. It's what you do. Your side is picked and if you supported Argentina, you would be a traitor. Sides are pre-ordained depending on political allegiance with other countries. You cannot pretend otherwise

[Denver]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Are you saying this is a lie

An Israeli grandmother was murdered by Hamas terrorists with her killers posting it on her own Facebook account, her family has said.

Describing her as “pure and good”, the unnamed woman’s granddaughter Mor Bayder claimed the horrifying videos were shared publicly on social media, reportedly showing the elderly woman being slaughtered in her own home.

“A terrorist came home to her, killed her, took her phone, filmed the horror and published it on her Facebook wall,” Ms Bayder said. “This is how we found out.”

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...0ee631b8&ei=11

Which has nothing to do with what I said, try harder