[Livia]

Are there any women on this thread who "identify as a cis woman"? Anyone? Anyone at all?

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Livia

Are there any women on this thread who "identify as a cis woman"? Anyone? Anyone at all?

Have I been referring to any women specifically on this thread as cis women, or have I been speaking about the entire population? If you feel it doesn't apply to you, then that's fine I am not talking about you.

I'll say it again though... cis just means the opposite of trans. It's not an insult. It's an adjective. It's not the same as calling someone born female and raised female a male because they may have a genetic abnormality. Ew.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Have I been referring to any women specifically on this thread as cis women, or have I been speaking about the entire population? If you feel it doesn't apply to you, then that's fine I am not talking about you.

I'll say it again though... cis just means the opposite of trans. It's not an insult. It's an adjective. It's not the same as calling someone born female and raised female a male because they may have a genetic abnormality. Ew.

You're talking generally about natural born women. I am a natural born woman. I don't have to identify as anything nor watch while you shove women into a pigeonhole to suit your own agenda.

[Yuki Maru Hoshi]

Originally Posted by Livia

Are there any women on this thread who "identify as a cis woman"? Anyone? Anyone at all?

I haven't met a single woman that has ever used the term personally, much less in this thread. I've never heard the term from other professionals or even in the medical field... it's clearly a minority view (or term).

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Maru

I haven't met a single woman that has ever used the term personally, much less in this thread. I've never heard the term from other professionals or even in the medical field... it's clearly a minority view (or term).

I don’t go around calling myself a cis man generally, but if I am having a conversation about trans men and cis men I will say “cis men” and “trans men” to distinguish between which of the men I am talking about.

If I’m having a conversation about men and am discussing the differences in life between straight men and gay men I will refer to them as straight men and gay men, not “men” and “gay men”.

If I am having a conversation about men and am referring to the differences in life between white men and black men, I will say “white men” and “black men” not “men” and “black men”.

If I am having a conversation about men and the differences of views between Conservative men and Liberal Men I will say Conservative men and Liberal men not “Men” and “Conservative Men”

It really is just that simple and really isn’t that deep.

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I don’t go around calling myself a cis man generally, but if I am having a conversation about trans men and cis men I will say “cis men” and “trans men” to distinguish between which of the men I am talking about.

If I’m having a conversation about men and am discussing the differences in life between straight men and gay men I will refer to them as straight men and gay men, not “men” and “gay men”.

If I am having a conversation about men and am referring to the differences in life between white men and black men, I will say “white men” and “black men” not “men” and “black men”.

If I am having a conversation about men and the differences of views between Conservative men and Liberal Men I will say Conservative men and Liberal men not “Men” and “Conservative Men”

It really is just that simple and really isn’t that deep.

The examples above are like comparing apples and oranges, we were born women, not cis women, transwomen were born men hence the prefix trans to denote they were born men, now that to me is pretty simple, women do not need the prefix cis just to soothe the brows of trans women which is essentially what adding the prefix is, if you are talking about women and transwomen its pretty evident who is who to everyone.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The examples above are like comparing apples and oranges, we were born women, not cis women, transwomen were born men hence the prefix trans to denote they were born men, now that to me is pretty simple, women do not need the prefix cis just to soothe the brows of trans women which is essentially what adding the prefix is, if you are talking about women and transwomen its pretty evident who is who to everyone.

I disagree, but I'll stop saying cis woman on this forum.

While we are doing a sweep of language that's annoying/can be seen as offensive, please can we start saying "trans woman" instead of "transwoman" as the latter isn't correct and infers a type of othering that removes them as women.

If we could also refrain from calling Imane Khelif a man that would also be great. Regardless of any test results (of which we have no actual evidence) she was born a female, raised a female and identifies as such and it would be great to respect that.

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I disagree, but I'll stop saying cis woman on this forum.

While we are doing a sweep of language that's annoying/can be seen as offensive, please can we start saying "trans woman" instead of "transwoman" as the latter isn't correct and infers a type of othering that removes them as women.

If we could also refrain from calling Imane Khelif a man that would also be great. Regardless of any test results (of which we have no actual evidence) she was born a female, raised a female and identifies as such and it would be great to respect that.

Agreed thank you

[user104658]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I disagree, but I'll stop saying cis woman on this forum.

The thing is, whilst I think for linguistic/conversational simplicity, It think it would be useful to have a word that can be used in this distinguishing way (when discussing trans issues, specifically) HOWEVER what I do find completely disingenuous is pretending that there isn't a very good reason that women have taken against it even when used in good faith. It was used pointedly/as a slur for years. You understand this, the people doing it understand this, they MUST, given the number of words that have become slurs against them. Using a word pointedly (or knowing it has been used this way) and then insisting "you shouldn't have a problem with this word when it's not being used as a slur " is gaslight. You might as well be saying "Well, breeders is accurate for people with kids, it only means people who have offspring ".

While we are doing a sweep of language that's annoying/can be seen as offensive, please can we start saying "trans woman" instead of "transwoman" as the latter isn't correct and infers a type of othering that removes them as women.

The irony here of course is that it kind of falls under the same thing. There is no meaningful difference between "trans woman" and "transwoman" other than the inference but you can clearly see why that is a problem whilst denying that "cis" is a problem. I get a bit stuck on my answer here because it is used pointedly but it's hard to say that the "space" makes an objective difference beyond intent. But it is -- you have to accept, I'm afraid -- a perfectly legitimate opinion to believe that biologically male trans individuals are not women. You cannot legally discriminate against them for that... but as an individual opinion, yes you are allowed to believe that trans women are not women. Thought-policing is not the vibe. I'm (largely) fine with restrictions on actions and behaviour, but not opinions.

If we could also refrain from calling Imane Khelif a man that would also be great. Regardless of any test results (of which we have no actual evidence) she was born a female, raised a female and identifies as such and it would be great to respect that.

Similar to the above, I think "a man" is pointed however even if you think it's respectful to avoid saying "male" (if proven) or "potentially male" (speculative) I think it does cobble the discussion. How else would you say it if you believe that this individual may actually be biologically male?

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

The thing is, whilst I think for linguistic/conversational simplicity, It think it would be useful to have a word that can be used in this distinguishing way (when discussing trans issues, specifically) HOWEVER what I do find completely disingenuous is pretending that there isn't a very good reason that women have taken against it even when used in good faith. It was used pointedly/as a slur for years. You understand this, the people doing it understand this, they MUST, given the number of words that have become slurs against them. Using a word pointedly (or knowing it has been used this way) and then insisting "you shouldn't have a problem with this word when it's not being used as a slur " is gaslight. You might as well be saying "Well, breeders is accurate for people with kids, it only means people who have offspring ".

Stop calling everything gaslighting. Context matters to whether the word is an insult or not. Gay is used an insult, still, yet it's also used an an accurate adjective for a man who loves another man. Nobody gay would have any issue with someone calling someone gay unless the context was insulting or othering. I've never used cis in a derogatory way, and that should be taken into consideration when my usage of the word is being discussed.

The irony here of course is that it kind of falls under the same thing. There is no meaningful difference between "trans woman" and "transwoman" other than the inference but you can clearly see why that is a problem whilst denying that "cis" is a problem. I get a bit stuck on my answer here because it is used pointedly but it's hard to say that the "space" makes an objective difference beyond intent. But it is -- you have to accept, I'm afraid -- a perfectly legitimate opinion to believe that biologically male trans individuals are not women. You cannot legally discriminate against them for that... but as an individual opinion, yes you are allowed to believe that trans women are not women. Thought-policing is not the vibe. I'm (largely) fine with restrictions on actions and behaviour, but not opinions.

Agreed, it's perfectly legitimate, which is why I haven't mentioned it until now despite it being used constantly, because I was giving the benefit of the doubt it was being used in a non-derogatory way. I was being extremely pedantic and petty because of the reaction to the usage of the word cis.

Similar to the above, I think "a man" is pointed however even if you think it's respectful to avoid saying "male" (if proven) or "potentially male" (speculative) I think it does cobble the discussion. How else would you say it if you believe that this individual may actually be biologically male?

Saying "he" when that person identifies as a woman, was assigned female and raised as one their entire life is just disrespectful... it just is.

I am under no illusion that trans women are not biological women. That of course is undeniable. However, even though I know that, I still refer to them as she out of respect for them and how they want to be known. It doesn't really matter that I know in science they are biological men. It would be crass of me to call them he out of simple manners.

It's like if my name was Benjamin and I said "I hate it though so please call me Luke" and you continued to call me Benjamin. My actual name isn't Luke, it's not on my birth certificate and it's not how I was Christened or whatever, but I'm asking you to do the grace and humour me despite you knowing it's not actually my name.

At the very least it's not asking you to believe they're women, it's just asking you to do the good mannered thing and humour them. You can believe what you want.

If someone doesn't want to do that, fine. Call them he if you can't bring yourself to humour someone. But don't complain if someone tells you that you're being a dick.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I disagree, but I'll stop saying cis woman on this forum.

While we are doing a sweep of language that's annoying/can be seen as offensive, please can we start saying "trans woman" instead of "transwoman" as the latter isn't correct and infers a type of othering that removes them as women.

If we could also refrain from calling Imane Khelif a man that would also be great. Regardless of any test results (of which we have no actual evidence) she was born a female, raised a female and identifies as such and it would be great to respect that.

He / she / they have not one single feminine trait .. like Sharon Davies said … after ever victory her coach lifted him/her up onto his shoulders … that is only something they do with MALE boxers


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[Christmas Dynasnow]

Olympic Boxer Imane Khelif Withdraws from Women’s Eindhoven Tournament After Mandatory Sex Testing Policy Announced

"The decision of Imane's exclusion is not ours. We regret it," tournament media
director Dirk Renders told The Associated Press.