[Zizu]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I disagree, but I'll stop saying cis woman on this forum.

While we are doing a sweep of language that's annoying/can be seen as offensive, please can we start saying "trans woman" instead of "transwoman" as the latter isn't correct and infers a type of othering that removes them as women.

If we could also refrain from calling Imane Khelif a man that would also be great. Regardless of any test results (of which we have no actual evidence) she was born a female, raised a female and identifies as such and it would be great to respect that.

He / she / they have not one single feminine trait .. like Sharon Davies said … after ever victory her coach lifted him/her up onto his shoulders … that is only something they do with MALE boxers


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[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I watched the fight against Kellie Harrington and Kelly was a far better boxer, imane barely landed a punch, they were in different weight classes though last Olympics so there was no rematch between them to see if it would have had a different outcome

…that’s what I mean, in terms of Imane because her situation is more unique…she could be seen as a ‘late developer’ in terms of not having been able to train in boxing competition because of the restrictions of her home country …so a lack of techniques and finesse and competing in general could have meant losses at the beginning of her career but any ‘advantaged power and strength’ etc might now becoming more and more to the fore…in terms of safety for all athletes, that has to be a huge consideration…I mean, I don’t know…these are things that I’ve considered and I feel have to be considered because they’re too important and potentially dangerous not to in a combat sport/arena…

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

The thing is, whilst I think for linguistic/conversational simplicity, It think it would be useful to have a word that can be used in this distinguishing way (when discussing trans issues, specifically) HOWEVER what I do find completely disingenuous is pretending that there isn't a very good reason that women have taken against it even when used in good faith. It was used pointedly/as a slur for years. You understand this, the people doing it understand this, they MUST, given the number of words that have become slurs against them. Using a word pointedly (or knowing it has been used this way) and then insisting "you shouldn't have a problem with this word when it's not being used as a slur " is gaslight. You might as well be saying "Well, breeders is accurate for people with kids, it only means people who have offspring ".

Stop calling everything gaslighting. Context matters to whether the word is an insult or not. Gay is used an insult, still, yet it's also used an an accurate adjective for a man who loves another man. Nobody gay would have any issue with someone calling someone gay unless the context was insulting or othering. I've never used cis in a derogatory way, and that should be taken into consideration when my usage of the word is being discussed.

The irony here of course is that it kind of falls under the same thing. There is no meaningful difference between "trans woman" and "transwoman" other than the inference but you can clearly see why that is a problem whilst denying that "cis" is a problem. I get a bit stuck on my answer here because it is used pointedly but it's hard to say that the "space" makes an objective difference beyond intent. But it is -- you have to accept, I'm afraid -- a perfectly legitimate opinion to believe that biologically male trans individuals are not women. You cannot legally discriminate against them for that... but as an individual opinion, yes you are allowed to believe that trans women are not women. Thought-policing is not the vibe. I'm (largely) fine with restrictions on actions and behaviour, but not opinions.

Agreed, it's perfectly legitimate, which is why I haven't mentioned it until now despite it being used constantly, because I was giving the benefit of the doubt it was being used in a non-derogatory way. I was being extremely pedantic and petty because of the reaction to the usage of the word cis.

Similar to the above, I think "a man" is pointed however even if you think it's respectful to avoid saying "male" (if proven) or "potentially male" (speculative) I think it does cobble the discussion. How else would you say it if you believe that this individual may actually be biologically male?

Saying "he" when that person identifies as a woman, was assigned female and raised as one their entire life is just disrespectful... it just is.

I am under no illusion that trans women are not biological women. That of course is undeniable. However, even though I know that, I still refer to them as she out of respect for them and how they want to be known. It doesn't really matter that I know in science they are biological men. It would be crass of me to call them he out of simple manners.

It's like if my name was Benjamin and I said "I hate it though so please call me Luke" and you continued to call me Benjamin. My actual name isn't Luke, it's not on my birth certificate and it's not how I was Christened or whatever, but I'm asking you to do the grace and humour me despite you knowing it's not actually my name.

At the very least it's not asking you to believe they're women, it's just asking you to do the good mannered thing and humour them. You can believe what you want.

If someone doesn't want to do that, fine. Call them he if you can't bring yourself to humour someone. But don't complain if someone tells you that you're being a dick.

[Livia]

You're asking us to do the good-mannered thing lol.... And if we don't comply WE'RE being a dick.

I'm done with men telling me how I should think and behave. DONE.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Livia

You're asking us to do the good-mannered thing lol.... And if we don't comply WE'RE being a dick.

I'm done with men telling me how I should think and behave. DONE.

Nobody is stopping you from thinking what you want and saying what you want, but freedom of speech isn't freedom of consequence and if you do something that someone considers rude, prepare to be called rude.

You are happy to risk insulting someone by sticking by your beliefs and principals, why are you surprised when they do the same to you?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Stop calling everything gaslighting. Context matters to whether the word is an insult or not.

The part that's gaslighting is the pretending not to know why people are pissed off with the word/that it's only been used neutrally and what it "technically means". I see where you're coming from in principle but the general sense of "why on earth would anyone have an issue with ye olde latin word cis" whilst knowing that it's been frequently used in a pointed way in a contentious issue. It's also not the same as the precursor gay/straight, because no one is disputing the noun when those words are used. If you say "gay man" or "straight man" neutrally... no one is disputing in either case that noun subject (man). When you use the differentiation of "cis woman" and "trans woman" the premise is that both parties accept the noun "woman" to refer to both, when that will often not be the case. This is actually the same issue when it comes to "trans woman" (adjective+noun) vs "transwoman" (singular noun). These linguistics are baked right into the debate, whether that's ideologically or subconsciously.

At the very least it's not asking you to believe they're women, it's just asking you to do the good mannered thing and humour them. You can believe what you want.

If someone doesn't want to do that, fine. Call them he if you can't bring yourself to humour someone. But don't complain if someone tells you that you're being a dick.

I agree with that in general and would do exactly that. I'm happy to say "she" when I believe that the person in question is genuine and the situation is uncomplicated. However that's a large caveat ("uncomplicated") -- for example, I am extremely hesitant to refer to an apparent trans-identifying male offender who has sexually assaulted women as "she" -- in that situation agreeing to "she" is at the point of being grossly offensive to the victims of that individual. They were not assaulted by a "she". They were assaulted by a predatory male. And even more importantly - the statistics of that offense MUST be recorded as a male perpetrator / female victim. The same applies to trans men (especially teenage females identifying as male) being assaulted by men. They MUST be recorded as female victims. This data is extremely important.

Worth noting: I entirely recognise that of the above two scenarios, young biologically female trans-identifying "boys" being assaulted by men, i.e. the trans person being the victim, is FAR more common, simply because biological females are the #1 victims of sexual violence by a massive margin. Considering them to be "boys" assaulted by men (in any sort of statistic) is frankly insane.

Extreme examples I know, but part of illustrating that language is important, in all sorts of scenarios, and can't just be a matter of the individual preference of "the listener".

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Livia

You're asking us to do the good-mannered thing lol.... And if we don't comply WE'RE being a dick.

I'm done with men telling me how I should think and behave. DONE.

not at all


i am just having my own opinion, and you guys are having your own opinions


this is called a good debate, hun


where more people having different opinions, i wouldn't go telling you how you should think

[Crimson Dynamo]

Olympic Boxer Imane Khelif Withdraws from Women’s Eindhoven Tournament After Mandatory Sex Testing Policy Announced

"The decision of Imane's exclusion is not ours. We regret it," tournament media
director Dirk Renders told The Associated Press.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Crimson Dynamo

Olympic Boxer Imane Khelif Withdraws from Women’s Eindhoven Tournament After Mandatory Sex Testing Policy Announced

"The decision of Imane's exclusion is not ours. We regret it," tournament media
director Dirk Renders told The Associated Press.

She supposed ruptured her bollox in training

Ouch !


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[Maru]

Originally Posted by Zizu

She supposed ruptured her bollox in training

Ouch !


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If they are intersex then they may not have that part. It's entirely possible they didn't know about their condition until later on in their life/career. It's also not fun to be picked on for medical conditions one can't help and especially if it is invisible. It doesn't mean I think their participation was correct, but I have sympathy they were seemingly allowed despite this only to have the rug pulled later on.

[Vicky.]

Yes intersex athletes are very different to trans ones, and even the trans ones..it's the fault of the organisers for allowing it in the first place

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Crimson Dynamo

Olympic Boxer Imane Khelif Withdraws from Women’s Eindhoven Tournament After Mandatory Sex Testing Policy Announced

"The decision of Imane's exclusion is not ours. We regret it," tournament media
director Dirk Renders told The Associated Press.

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[Beso]

Originally Posted by Crimson Dynamo

Olympic Boxer Imane Khelif Withdraws from Women’s Eindhoven Tournament After Mandatory Sex Testing Policy Announced

"The decision of Imane's exclusion is not ours. We regret it," tournament media
director Dirk Renders told The Associated Press.

https://www.thisisbigbrother.com/for...&postcount=295

[Jessica.]

I don't "identify" as a cis woman, I AM a cis women. I identify as female.

[Livia]

I am not a cis anything. I am a woman. I don't need defining.

[Mystic Mock]

I identify as a Bin man.

After all I sort the rubbish out more than the actual bin men do.