[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

now i am confused. Anyways. God does not send anyone to "hell" for not believing - but non-believers will spend an eternity away from God's everlasting love.

Thems the apples.

What about the pre destination stuff? Its one thing that I always struggle to understand in my faith! I mean we are supposed to be made a certain way. Non believers are made that way, and there is nothing they can do about it! RIght? At least thats how I understand it. So whats up with that?

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

What about the pre destination stuff? Its one thing that I always struggle to understand in my faith! I mean we are supposed to be made a certain way. Non believers are made that way, and there is nothing they can do about it! RIght? At least thats how I understand it. So whats up with that?

http://www.carm.org/predestination-and-election

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

http://www.carm.org/predestination-and-election

I dont want to read some article. Is it not the case, that we are predestined to act as we do, and believe what we believe, because of the way we were made by god right?

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

I dont want to read some article. Is it not the case, that we are predestined to act as we do, and believe what we believe, because of the way we were made by god right?

In the Reformed (Calvinist) camp, predestination includes individuals. In other words, the Reformed doctrine of predestination is that God predestines whom He wants to be saved and that without this predestination, none would be saved. The non-Reformed camp states that God predestines people to salvation, but that these people freely choose to follow God on their own. In other words, in the non-Reformed perspective, God is reacting to the will of individuals and predestining them only because they choose God where by contrast the Reformed position states that people choose God only because He has first predestined them.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

In the Reformed (Calvinist) camp, predestination includes individuals. In other words, the Reformed doctrine of predestination is that God predestines whom He wants to be saved and that without this predestination, none would be saved. The non-Reformed camp states that God predestines people to salvation, but that these people freely choose to follow God on their own. In other words, in the non-Reformed perspective, God is reacting to the will of individuals and predestining them only because they choose God where by contrast the Reformed position states that people choose God only because He has first predestined them.

Come again! What a load of waffle!

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

In the Reformed (Calvinist) camp, predestination includes individuals. In other words, the Reformed doctrine of predestination is that God predestines whom He wants to be saved and that without this predestination, none would be saved. The non-Reformed camp states that God predestines people to salvation, but that these people freely choose to follow God on their own. In other words, in the non-Reformed perspective, God is reacting to the will of individuals and predestining them only because they choose God where by contrast the Reformed position states that people choose God only because He has first predestined them.

MAn! OK. Well thats the one thing that I could never quite grasp. In Islam I think its the first one that they accept. So basically you choose god because he predestined you to do so.