[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

when ARE you going to learn that what you think, what you feel, what you believe is your own view, and not fact. I'll certainly dispute from here to hell and back that pulling down someones trousers was as far removed from being classed as 'fantastic entertainment', as you put it. It is churlish, childish and pathetic behaviour - not fantastic entertaiment - that's my view and I'm intelligent and mature enough to realise that my view in this, is not fact.

Try to avoid getting personal Jack - we are not discussing fms here - we are discussing the show and the housemates - feel free to criticise them, but save your petty insults / critique /criticism for that direction and not towards me.

But it isn't my view, it's not an opinion and it almost certainly is fact. At the end of the day, the incident created hundreds and hundreds of discussion threads on here, DS, many other forums, social networking sites and in real life. Now to a show like Big Brother do you realise how beneficial and essential it is to have talking points? Just try to comprehend for a second what it would be like if there were no incidents to discuss, no arguments, no feuds, nothing. Absolutely nothing. Where would the threads come from? How would shows like Bit On The Side survive? How would the entire show survive? And the answer? It wouldn't. Because the entire show relies on interesting, entertaining, controversial housemates to create interesting discussion points. Without them, the show fails. They are absolutely crucial to the success of a show like Big Brother. Crucial. This is one hundred percent not a case of 'this is your opinion', and sadly, a lot of people don't realise this and fail to think about it logically. Whilst you may not agree with the actions that Denise carried out, or perhaps other housemates - the consequences of their actions led to fantastic TV and debates, all of which are still continuing to this day. See...even this thread is an example. We wouldn't be having this discussion now if it weren't for Denise, Michael and even the twins and Nicola. By virtue of you (or anyone else) even talking about Denise, or any of the other housemates involved in any kind of interesting action in the house, you have or are being entertained by them. That's how it works. It is not an opinion, it is a fact.

Originally Posted by Jules2

She was running him down constantly she couldnt let it go, she couldnt get over the fact that he didnt like her......She has to be liked by everyone to allow her to cope with life.

No she wasn't...she didn't mention him until asked by Emma. What is she supposed to do, ignore her?

Originally Posted by Jules2

So it was ok for her to bait him? Had she acted in a ladylike manner (lol) she could have proven herself a greater person than him instead of which she let herself down big time. It was her favourite pastime baiting Michael and then going around in the house saying how unreasonable he was. He even asked the help of BB with her. Had he been harassing her he would have been thrown out and booed, look at what happened to Shree, but thereagain he was a male. Had he pulled someones trousers down, there would have been an uproar. One of the Jedward twins was pulled up because he twanged someones bikin bottom. He shouldnt have done it and neither should Denise have done so. Many took her side though as they are doing now with the BOTS thing. BB know what they are doing, they should have perhaps realised how fragile Denise appeard to be and not to have kept on bringing up the fact of Michael. Michael managed not to go into to much detail although his words said it all. She went on and on with her poor little me act.

Michael was the winner where BOTS was concerned, her face looked evil at one stage. Her past was catching up with her. Sad tbh I hope she manages to overcome it all and find peace within herself without having to sell herself so much.

We can all have our own opinions on the incident when looking at it from a realistic, moralistic perspective, but the fact of the matter is it was great TV.

And I'm sorry, but at no point had Denise 'baited' Michael on the night of the final during her Bit On The Side interview. It all started when Michael started pretending to snore, something which in a large majority of places around the world is considered poor manners and very rude. Let's be honest, as I have already mentioned, if you were to do that in a working environment or a lecture you would be thrown out with no hesitation. There are no excuses for it.

Originally Posted by Jules2

But is it good tv if we watch the demise of one person who cannot accept the responsiblity of growing older? I am all for a few rows etc. but this was cringeworthy and not acceptable. BB should watch more carefully who they put in the house, look what happened to Shree, he tried to commit suicide after the house finished. Not good at all, what happened with Anthony and the other one who constantly harassed him, cringeworthy stuff. Not good tv.

We need a balance of nominations, tasks, fallouts but not to watch someone deteriorate because she isnt accepted by one HM whom she was harassing.

Yes. Yes it is, I'm afraid. Call me sadistic, but whilst I did feel sorry for Denise at times (and some of the other housemates), when you look at it from a birds eye perspective (as everyone who watches Big Brother should do), the resulting actions led to days and days of great debate and IMO, unmissable, interesting television. It is these sorts of incidents that benefit the show and give us all something to talk about. And as such, we should all thank Michael, Denise, the twins and Nicola for their great contributions to what was a fantastic series.

[Ammi]

Michael's 'input' to Denise's interview has provided discussions and debates therefore it is also 'entertainment' as it set's the interview apart from any other winner interview.....it can't be one without the other. If Denise wasn't 'rude' when she attempted to jab Michael in the house and she wasn't 'rude' or in BB's words 'inappropriate' when she pulled down Karissa's clothing, if it simply provided entertainment, or more, I think controversy, which it did...no matter on what your opinion are...the same has to apply over the interview. I'm still not sure how other's have seen what I haven't (snoring) as it was off camera and I've replayed it, but whatever it was, it should only be described as rude if the same is fairly applied to Denise...imo, at worst I would say controversial....and with any controversial behaviour, as Denise is guilty of also...people are naturally going to have strong opinions

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Ammi

Michael's 'input' to Denise's interview has provided discussions and debates therefore it is also 'entertainment' as it set's the interview apart from any other winner interview.....it can't be one without the other. If Denise wasn't 'rude' when she attempted to jab Michael in the house and she wasn't 'rude' or in BB's words 'inappropriate' when she pulled down Karissa's clothing, if it simply provided entertainment, or more, I think controversy, which it did...no matter on what your opinion are...the same has to apply over the interview. I'm still not sure how other's have seen what I haven't (snoring) as it was off camera and I've replayed it, but whatever it was, it should only be described as rude if the same is fairly applied to Denise...imo, at worst I would say controversial....and with any controversial behaviour, as Denise is guilty of also...people are naturally going to have strong opinions

Of course the interview was entertaining. In fact, I made it clear in one of the first threads about this incident that I laughed, cringed and then felt awkward. So yes, this was also entertaining. But when you step back and look at it properly and realistically, Michael was out of order. The snoring isn't easily audible, but you can hear it if you try hard enough. Even so, the biggest clue is the fact that the camera keeps panning to where Michael is sitting, and you can see him making facial expressions that resemble someone who is attempting to pretend to snore, you can almost see it coming before Denise pulls him up on it.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Of course the interview was entertaining. In fact, I made it clear in one of the first threads about this incident that I laughed, cringed and then felt awkward. So yes, this was also entertaining. But when you step back and look at it properly and realistically, Michael was out of order. The snoring isn't easily audible, but you can hear it if you try hard enough. Even so, the biggest clue is the fact that the camera keeps panning to where Michael is sitting, and you can see him making facial expressions that resemble someone who is attempting to pretend to snore, you can almost see it coming before Denise pulls him up on it.

Imo, I do think this will just go round in circles because if Michael was out of order, and I accept your opinion on that, then several previous incidents in the house instigated by Denise or her behaviour were also out of order, so people will be indignant that Michael is considered rude whereas Denise entertaining...I think Denise's expression is she assumes people will 'get her', maybe Michael was displaying his sense of humour in the interview and some didn't 'get it'...so they assumed it was rude...doesn't mean it was, anymore or less than anything Denise has done...doesn't mean it wasn't either.....it's opinion...and that's all anyone can say because there are situations in the outside world were the tampering of Karissa's clothing would be taken a lot more seriously....but it wasn't the outside world it was the BB house and it wasn't a lecture hall...it was the BB studio and involved two people who have no love lost between them...but opinions will continue, I'm sure.
...I don't normally bother posting in this section once it's over, so the subjects closed for me.....I don't mean that rudely, but it's been a full on three weeks of CBB...and I'm moving on

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Ammi

Imo, I do think this will just go round in circles because if Michael was out of order, and I accept your opinion on that, then several previous incidents in the house instigated by Denise or her behaviour were also out of order, so people will be indignant that Michael is considered rude whereas Denise entertaining...I think Denise's expression is she assumes people will 'get her', maybe Michael was displaying his sense of humour in the interview and some didn't 'get it'...so they assumed it was rude...doesn't mean it was, anymore or less than anything Denise has done...doesn't mean it wasn't either.....it's opinion...and that's all anyone can say because there are situations in the outside world were the tampering of Karissa's clothing would be taken a lot more seriously....but it wasn't the outside world it was the BB house and it wasn't a lecture hall...it was the BB studio and involved two people who have no love lost between them...but opinions will continue, I'm sure.
...I don't normally bother posting in this section once it's over, so the subjects closed for me.....I don't mean that rudely, but it's been a full on three weeks of CBB...and I'm moving on

Well this seems a bit pointless replying to you, but...

To explain it simply, Michael was rude on the night. Denise was rude many a time towards him inside the house. All of this (both Michael and Denise's incidents) was entertaining. But however, Denise's actions inside the house does not at all entitle Michael to then pretend to snore during her Bit On The Side winner's interview. It's the height of rudeness and I'm afraid it is not something that anybody can have an 'opinion' on. It is without question rude and bad mannered, it doesn't come down to people's own views, it is just simply rude. And yes, before some fellow Michael fan (yes, I'm a Michael fan) pulls me up on it - a lot of the things Denise did to Michael in the house were rude, and I'm not saying they were right either - but those incidents do not permit Michael to be extremely rude to her during the interview. Two wrongs do not make a right as the saying goes, if anything he has lowered himself to her level.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Well this seems a bit pointless replying to you, but...

To explain it simply, Michael was rude on the night. Denise was rude many a time towards him inside the house. All of this (both Michael and Denise's incidents) was entertaining. But however, Denise's actions inside the house does not at all entitle Michael to then pretend to snore during her Bit On The Side winner's interview. It's the height of rudeness and I'm afraid it is not something that anybody can have an 'opinion' on. It is without question rude and bad mannered, it doesn't come down to people's own views, it is just simply rude. And yes, before some fellow Michael fan (yes, I'm a Michael fan) pulls me up on it - a lot of the things Denise did to Michael in the house were rude, and I'm not saying they were right either - but those incidents do not permit Michael to be extremely rude to her during the interview. Two wrongs do not make a right as the saying goes, if anything he has lowered himself to her level.

but we didnt see or hear him snore, we only have Denise's word for that at the moment.

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by Jules2

but we didnt see or hear him snore, we only have Denise's word for that at the moment.

and therein lies the lesson.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Jack_

But it isn't my view, it's not an opinion and it almost certainly is fact. At the end of the day, the incident created hundreds and hundreds of discussion threads on here, DS, many other forums, social networking sites and in real life. Now to a show like Big Brother do you realise how beneficial and essential it is to have talking points? Just try to comprehend for a second what it would be like if there were no incidents to discuss, no arguments, no feuds, nothing. Absolutely nothing. Where would the threads come from? How would shows like Bit On The Side survive? How would the entire show survive? And the answer? It wouldn't. Because the entire show relies on interesting, entertaining, controversial housemates to create interesting discussion points. Without them, the show fails. They are absolutely crucial to the success of a show like Big Brother. Crucial. This is one hundred percent not a case of 'this is your opinion', and sadly, a lot of people don't realise this and fail to think about it logically. Whilst you may not agree with the actions that Denise carried out, or perhaps other housemates - the consequences of their actions led to fantastic TV and debates, all of which are still continuing to this day. See...even this thread is an example. We wouldn't be having this discussion now if it weren't for Denise, Michael and even the twins and Nicola. By virtue of you (or anyone else) even talking about Denise, or any of the other housemates involved in any kind of interesting action in the house, you have or are being entertained by them. That's how it works. It is not an opinion, it is a fact.



No she wasn't...she didn't mention him until asked by Emma. What is she supposed to do, ignore her?



We can all have our own opinions on the incident when looking at it from a realistic, moralistic perspective, but the fact of the matter is it was great TV.

And I'm sorry, but at no point had Denise 'baited' Michael on the night of the final during her Bit On The Side interview. It all started when Michael started pretending to snore, something which in a large majority of places around the world is considered poor manners and very rude. Let's be honest, as I have already mentioned, if you were to do that in a working environment or a lecture you would be thrown out with no hesitation. There are no excuses for it.



Yes. Yes it is, I'm afraid. Call me sadistic, but whilst I did feel sorry for Denise at times (and some of the other housemates), when you look at it from a birds eye perspective (as everyone who watches Big Brother should do), the resulting actions led to days and days of great debate and IMO, unmissable, interesting television. It is these sorts of incidents that benefit the show and give us all something to talk about. And as such, we should all thank Michael, Denise, the twins and Nicola for their great contributions to what was a fantastic series.

If we look at it properly we didnt hear or see him snore, he turned his face away from Denise and clicked his mouth, that wasnt a snore and tbh Denise was droning on and on and on and

I know what you are saying re good entertainment but I still do not like to see a person crumble, or perhaps she was acting? As Denise said though, if anything went wrong, she was only joking so......There arent a lot of good views about her on line but we are each entitled to our own opinion as we know.

I will stand by my ground and say Michael was not disrespectful to her in a nasty way (lol isnt that what she said and what Emma agreed that she was not being disrespectful by pulling the pants down, naturally though that is ok for Madam Denise ), maybe he was joking? I doubt whether many will accept that as it wasnt Denise, I personally think he was as bored with her droning as I was.

The presenters should have known better than to fuel the fire especially as Denise had had the news about someone spilling the beans to the Sunday papers, I bet she was fuming. Still I guess everything is ok for Denise.....Time will tell how she handles herself but whatever she will blame others for her demise if she cannot cope with her inner self and her demons.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Jules2

If we look at it properly we didnt hear or see him snore, he turned his face away from Denise and clicked his mouth, that wasnt a snore and tbh Denise was droning on and on and on and

I know what you are saying re good entertainment but I still do not like to see a person crumble, or perhaps she was acting? As Denise said though, if anything went wrong, she was only joking so......There arent a lot of good views about her on line but we are each entitled to our own opinion as we know.

I will stand by my ground and say Michael was not disrespectful to her in a nasty way (lol isnt that what she said and what Emma agreed that she was not being disrespectful by pulling the pants down, naturally though that is ok for Madam Denise ), maybe he was joking? I doubt whether many will accept that as it wasnt Denise, I personally think he was as bored with her droning as I was.

The presenters should have known better than to fuel the fire especially as Denise had had the news about someone spilling the beans to the Sunday papers, I bet she was fuming. Still I guess everything is ok for Denise.....Time will tell how she handles herself but whatever she will blame others for her demise if she cannot cope with her inner self and her demons.

Apparently Denise said she has beaten her demons, beaten her alcohol addiction and beaten her depression. She lied on all three counts. I'm sick of everyone defending poor ickle Denise, when Michael who has also had to fight his demons, beat his alcohol addiction and depression, has not droned on and on about it, and copes with it on a daily basis without trying to milk the sympathy vote. No-one has cut him any slack have they?

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Jules2

but we didnt see or hear him snore, we only have Denise's word for that at the moment.

Originally Posted by Jules2

If we look at it properly we didnt hear or see him snore, he turned his face away from Denise and clicked his mouth, that wasnt a snore and tbh Denise was droning on and on and on and

I know what you are saying re good entertainment but I still do not like to see a person crumble, or perhaps she was acting? As Denise said though, if anything went wrong, she was only joking so......There arent a lot of good views about her on line but we are each entitled to our own opinion as we know.

I will stand by my ground and say Michael was not disrespectful to her in a nasty way (lol isnt that what she said and what Emma agreed that she was not being disrespectful by pulling the pants down, naturally though that is ok for Madam Denise ), maybe he was joking? I doubt whether many will accept that as it wasnt Denise, I personally think he was as bored with her droning as I was.

The presenters should have known better than to fuel the fire especially as Denise had had the news about someone spilling the beans to the Sunday papers, I bet she was fuming. Still I guess everything is ok for Denise.....Time will tell how she handles herself but whatever she will blame others for her demise if she cannot cope with her inner self and her demons.

You could see and hear him snoring

Plus, the reaction of the audience showed he was obviously making some kind of rude noise or gesture, and the faces of some of the other housemates, like Nicola, were not impressed at all. They all speak for themselves really, it's pretty damn obvious he was making some kind of noise, let's not go as far as to try and attempt to say he wasn't now...