[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Sorry, I do not agree at all with the first bit of your post.
However I respect your personal stance on it and I agree with your last part 100%,this is the biggest referendum in the history of Europe and that is why the risks of out need to be far more outlined as well as possible benefits.

We already know there is good and bad about being in the EU but in it we 'are' still a successful Nation and that should continue to be the case if we remain in..

Maybe too we could be still as successful if out, maybe even do better but I have seen nothing at all of substance to say we could do as well or do better out.
The absence of that surety makes leaving a dangerous risk to take for the UKs future in my view.
I know you will never agree with that in any way at all.

However that is just as equally I won't with you, while that substantiation as to the out scenario is non existent from the out organisations.

The out cant substantiate as many claims and figures because the inners are the establishment and control all of the massive organisations that spoon feed the masses the FIGURES. The gap between rich and poor is greater in america than ever and thats whats coming our way. stating in will be the death of the individual.

Look around your home town, look at photos from the past 100 years....notice how the 100s of local traders and wonderful colourful shop fronts and even more colourful characters packed the streets in the old photos...the markets were glorious, the architecture unique and timeless....see how each decade these people and characters and splendour, nay glory....disappears.....see how so many of these wonderful people and places are wiped out by grotesque huge monolithic corporations ....are these supermarkets really better for us? world record obesity, world record diabetes, world record child obesity and lack of exercise

As we read up what all these wars in the last 50 years were about ? mass power mass control, sales of weapons to our enemies oil land resources for corporations, imposed dictatorships, the corruption is on a scale that is unreal to comprehend ....news corporations were numbered over 50 in the 1980s now there are only 6 that own 90% of the news.....only this week we discover that millions of cars are sold on a pack of lies to rip off the masses.....any fine now is miniscule compared to their sales...the sheer enormity of corporate corruption involved in the 2008 crash? who benefitted? the rich, who was hit? the poor of course, in america the poor lost everything and couldnt even afford healthcare...as we socialized the banks losses and the bankers kept their bonuses and of course none of them went to jail
the banks have not been broken up they have become bigger in size and fewer in numbers in monstrous monopolies

These corporations are now so powerful, wealthier than many nations, with politicians paid off, they are propped up by mind boggling rules that make it impossible for sme's to ever compete for a piece of the market again

Even the jumble sale market , the deliveries market , and ticket market has been corporatised across the globe with ebay paypal amazon and stubhub...all in cahoots with google who provide the searches. taking enormous ..percentages and enslaving the masses to work for their monolithic monoplies for peanuts. theyve even managed to wipe out the last bastion of the unqualified worker across the world, simple taxi driving
Theyve even got staff down as self employed now so paying minimum wages are negated by these corporations for millions of staff.

the EU is an unmitigated disaster.....it has failed in absolutely everything. Its insane central control has lead to this disaster...everynation bar germany and austria is poorer....many have gone bankrupt, Italy had its entire government replaced by the EU? Its just insane. at its heart is an insatiable desire to control everything and everyone. there is also a lot of petty anti american bigotry and sobbery which will of course achieve nothing and will ironically be wiped out with ttip when the american corporations march in to europe and cherry pick everything

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

The out cant substantiate as many claims and figures because the inners are the establishment and control all of the massive organisations that spoon feed the masses the FIGURES. The gap between rich and poor is greater in america than ever and thats whats coming our way. stating in will be the death of the individual.

Look around your home town, look at photos from the past 100 years....notice how the 100s of local traders and wonderful colourful shop fronts and even more colourful characters packed the streets in the old photos...the markets were glorious, the architecture unique and timeless....see how each decade these people and characters and splendour, nay glory....disappears.....see how so many of these wonderful people and places are wiped out by grotesque huge monolithic corporations ....are these supermarkets really better for us? world record obesity, world record diabetes, world record child obesity and lack of exercise

As we read up what all these wars in the last 50 years were about ? mass power mass control, sales of weapons to our enemies oil land resources for corporations, imposed dictatorships, the corruption is on a scale that is unreal to comprehend ....news corporations were numbered over 50 in the 1980s now there are only 6 that own 90% of the news.....only this week we discover that millions of cars are sold on a pack of lies to rip off the masses.....any fine now is miniscule compared to their sales...the sheer enormity of corporate corruption involved in the 2008 crash? who benefitted? the rich, who was hit? the poor of course, in america the poor lost everything and couldnt even afford healthcare...as we socialized the banks losses and the bankers kept their bonuses and of course none of them went to jail
the banks have not been broken up they have become bigger in size and fewer in numbers in monstrous monopolies

These corporations are now so powerful, wealthier than many nations, with politicians paid off, they are propped up by mind boggling rules that make it impossible for sme's to ever compete for a piece of the market again

Even the jumble sale market , the deliveries market , and ticket market has been corporatised across the globe with ebay paypal amazon and stubhub...all in cahoots with google who provide the searches. taking enormous ..percentages and enslaving the masses to work for their monolithic monoplies for peanuts. theyve even managed to wipe out the last bastion of the unqualified worker across the world, simple taxi driving
Theyve even got staff down as self employed now so paying minimum wages are negated by these corporations for millions of staff.

the EU is an unmitigated disaster.....it has failed in absolutely everything. Its insane central control has lead to this disaster...everynation bar germany and austria is poorer....many have gone bankrupt, Italy had its entire government replaced by the EU? Its just insane. at its heart is an insatiable desire to control everything and everyone. there is also a lot of petty anti american bigotry and sobbery which will of course achieve nothing and will ironically be wiped out with ttip when the american corporations march in to europe and cherry pick everything

Nothing is 100% certain anywhere,however the outs must know what deals they will be wanting to get,they must know what conditions from the EU they would refuse to accept,they also need to tell the voters if they'd refuse any conditions what will be the consequences of that on ay more lucrative trading deal.

To seemingly themselves have no idea what out will come to fruition as, than that leaves a continuing massive hole in their credibility and therefore voting to leave.

TIPP is a bit of a possible red herring here in this debate,if it becomes part of the EU then we have a trading deal when out with the EU of course we would likely have to be affected with it, good or bad.
Unless the outs are now claiming we are to have nothing to do with the EU.which I am sure even they know that would be economical suicide.

TIPPs is still being discussed,it will have to be ratified by 'all' the EU nations if it even gets that far.
If there is opposition as strong as has been stated on here to it, I myself think ratification of it is more less likely then likely.
So TIPPS cannot be judged fully until all the talks ad negotiations are completed,I understand 2020 is the target date.
Then if any deal can be out to the EU nations it likely will, 'but' it will need ratifying by 'all' the EU nations anyway.
Of which we would still be a member if we vote to stay in and then actually get a say on TIPPS.
Out we will have no say and furthermore no say as to if in any way it could cross into our dealings with the EU,as we will have then no control over conditions being added or changed as to our dealings with the EU if out.

There is much wrong with the EU,I would love to go back to the drawing board on it on many issues,however you cannot go back to the drawing board with any influence if you leave something,inside the organisation you can, and if as you say other EU Nations are disgruntled, then handled rightly the UK could lead great change in the EU with many of those disgruntled Nations also joining the move to greater reform.

Out, we can do nothing but still accept what the EU expects of us for any trading deals,costs, tariffs and conditions.

Now, if the out organisations can show us in any way what deals we will get, not could get.
If they can get even an idea of costings and the conditions to be imposed.
If they can get any organisation or other Nation to say we should not be in the EU, then the out argument may be going somewhere.

We have heard form the out side the dismissal of us not being as secure out the EU by the in side,then along comes a hierarchy of NATO, which was held up as being more important than the EU as to security,yet NATO stated they would prefer the UK in the EU.
Someone is getting it badly wrong.

I ask again, is it the out side 'cannot' tell the voters what out 'will' be really like or is it they 'will not' tell the voters.
Either is bad as if they cannot,then whatever picture they paint, in the absence of even any guidelines, is then near irrelevant.
If they will not, then that has to mean the picture maybe is a much darker one.

I think. as you rightly say the out side have not got all the info, that is no excuse for not giving the voters any real info however,even just as things set up to begin deal talks with the EU and other Nations,of which the USA will be one too.

I think those in govt who have great doubts and issues as to the EU, who have info at hand,have looked very closely at what out is and the picture is not a good one,which is why, love or hate them, Cameron and Osborne are now firmly for in.

The out organisations,have the London Mayor, 3 major Cabinet Ministers and another ex Cabinet Minister,those people must have some info as to what is possible out yet have chosen only to dismiss any in argument while presenting nothing of note as to where we go, what we do, who with when and how once we voted to leave.

For me that is too big a risk so with all its faults I still say staying where we are, as a successful Nation in the EU,(despite my annoyances with the EU too), is the better option to ensure the future success and further stability of the UK.
You can disagree with all I say,as I do almost all that you have with full respect to you for your position on this.
However an argument has to be backed up with solid facts and particularly big change has to be shown to be for the better and not a risk in any way.

Having said all that,I think the result will be to leave, carried only by the far South of England which will then open up more instability and chaos across the UK.
I do however think leaving is the likely result at this point in time anyway.
People being so sick of the 'over the heads' stuff being thrown at them by both sides.
So you may well get your wish.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Nothing is 1005 certain anywhere,however the outs must know what deals they will be wanting to get,they must know what conditions from the EU they would refuse to accept,they also need to tell the voters if they'd refuse any conditions what will be the consequences of that on ay more lucrative trading deal.

To seemingly themselves have no idea what out will come to fruition as, than that leaves a continuing massive hole in their credibility and therefore voting to leave.

TIPP is a bit of a possible red herring here in this debate,if it becomes part of the EU then we have a trading deal when out with the EU of course we would likely have to be affected with it, good or bad.
Unless the outs are now claiming we are to have nothing to do with the EU.which I am sure even they know that would be economical suicide.

TIPPs is still being discussed,it will have to be ratified by 'all' the EU nations if it even gets that far.
If there is opposition as strong as has been stated on here to it, I myself think ratification of it is more less likely then likely.
So TIPPS cannot be judged fully until all the talks ad negotiations are completed,I understand 2020 is the target date.
Then if any deal can be out to the EU nations it likely will, 'but' it will need ratifying by 'all' the EU nations anyway.
Of which we would still be a member if we vote to stay in and then actually get a say on TIPPS.
Out we will have no say and furthermore no say as to if in any way it could cross into our dealings with the EU,as we will have then no control over conditions being added or changed as to our dealings with the EU if out.

There is much wrong with the EU,I would love to go back to the drawing board on it on many issues,however you cannot go back to the drawing board with any influence if you leave something,inside the organisation you can, and if as you say other EU Nations are disgruntled, then handled rightly the UK could lead great change in the EU with many of those disgruntled Nations also joining the move to greater reform.

Out, we can do nothing but still accept what the EU expects of us for any trading deals,costs, tariffs and conditions.

Now, if the out organisations can show us in any way what deals we will get, not could get.
If they can get even an idea of costings and the conditions to be imposed.
If they can get any organisation or other Nation to say we should not be in the EU, then the out argument may be going somewhere.

We have heard form the out side the dismissal of us not being as secure out the EU by the in side,then along comes a hierarchy of NATO, which was held up as being more important than the EU as to security,yet NATO stated they would prefer the UK in the EU.
Someone is getting it badly wrong.

I ask again, is it the out side 'cannot' tell the voters what out 'will' be really like or is it they 'will not' tell the voters.
Either is bad as if they cannot,then whatever picture they paint, in the absence of even any guidelines, is then near irrelevant.
If they will not, then that has to mean the picture maybe is a much darker one.

I think. as you rightly say the out side have not got all the info, that is no excuse for not giving the voters any real info however,even just as things set up to begin deal talks with the EU and other Nations,of which the USA will be one too.

I think those in govt who have great doubts and issues as to the EU, who have info at hand,have looked very closely at what out is and the picture is not a good one,which is why, love or hate them, Cameron and Osborne are now firmly for in.

The out organisations,have the London Mayor, 3 major Cabinet Ministers and another ex Cabinet Minister,those people must have some info as to what is possible out yet have chosen only to dismiss any in argument while presenting nothing of note as to where we go, what we do, who with when and how once we voted to leave.

For me that is too big a risk so with all its faults I still say staying where we are, as a successful Nation in the EU,(despite my annoyances with the EU too), is the better option to ensure the future success and further stability of the UK.
You can disagree with all I say,as I do almost all that you have with full respect to you for your position on this.
However an argument has to be backed up with solid facts and particularly big change has to be shown to be for the better and not a risk in any way.

Having said all that,I think the result will be to leave, carried only by the far South of England which will then open up more instability and chaos across the UK.
I do however think leaving is the likely result at this point in time anyway.
People being so sick of the 'over the heads' stuff being thrown at them by both sides.
So you may well get your wish.

makes you wonder how so many of the most successful countries do so well outside the EU....starting with switzerland and norway, usually rated as the best most successful and highest quality of life nations in the world....other awesome countries who govern themselves include canada, new zealand, australia, america, japan hong kong, oh and china arent too too bad either
they all run their own affairs and theyre the top nations in the world...the only EU nation at the top is of course germany, who control the entire monetary policies of the eu to suit their own needs and agenda ,the vast majority of the other eu nations have gone to hell in a handbasket

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

makes you wonder how so many of the most successful countries do so well outside the EU....starting with switzerland and norway, usually rated as the best most successful and highest quality of life nations in the world....other awesome countries who govern themselves include canada, new zealand, australia, america, japan hong kong, oh and china arent too too bad either
they all run their own affairs and theyre the top nations in the world...the only EU nation at the top is of course germany, who control the entire monetary policies of the eu to suit their own needs and agenda ,the vast majority of the other eu nations have gone to hell in a handbasket

That doesn't make me wonder at all, they have never been in the EU so have held onto all they had before rather than giving it up.
They have been able to hold their success as it was before the EU came into being.

They have not known any different.
However those Nations all want relations with the EU and some already have, even accepting the free movement of EU citizens to have trade and relations with the EU too.

It may well have been had we never joined the EEC in 1973 and suck to all we had in place before,we may have continued doing pretty good too.
However we tried since the early 60s to get into the EEC only eventually getting in by 1973.

for the last 40+ years we have chosen closer ties to mainland Europe and what we had before is likely not there in the way it was when we gave it all up to join the EEC and then agree treaties that brought into being the EU over time.
Now we are being asked by the out side, to try to step right back again, in a sort of hope of finding some, most or very unlikely all we had before, which frankly doesn't fill me with much confidence as to that at all.

I don't hear those Nations you mention, racing to say, they would jump at supporting the UK out of the EU now ad rushing to outline any new trading deals for the UK.
In fact all those Nations are saying the best place for the UK to be is remaining in the EU.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

That doesn't make me wonder at all, they have never been in the EU so have held onto all they had before rather than giving it up.
They have been able to hold their success as it was before the EU came into being.

They have not known any different.
However those Nations all want relations with the EU and some already have, even accepting the free movement of U citizens to have trade and relations with the EU too.

It may well have been had we never joined the EEC in 1973 and suck to all we had in place before,we may have continued doing pretty good too.
However we tried since the early 60s to get into the EEC only eventually getting in by 1973.

for the last 40+ years we have chosen closer ties to mainland Europe and what we had before is likely not there in the way it was when we gave it all up to join the EEC and then agree treaties that brought into being the EU over time.
Now we are being asked by the out side, to try to step right back again, in a sort of hope of finding some, most or very unlikely all we had before, which frankly doesn't fill me with much confidence as to that at all.

I don't hear those Nations you mention, racing to say, they would jump at supporting the UK out of the EU now ad rushing to outline any new trading deals for the UK.
In fact all those Nations are saying the best place for the UK to be is remaining in the EU.

because it suits THEIR agenda not ours

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

because it suits THEIR agenda not ours

How can you say they are suiting their own agendas,as you pointed out they are NOT in the EU.
These Nations you accuse of giving the UK false and bad advice to remain in,are the very Nations the 'out' side would argue that the UK will have to try to deal with more if out.

If those Nations were expecting to do more trade directly with us if we left the EU,why on earth, if they were even in any way willing to accommodate that, would they be advising the UK to remain in.

That would make no sense whatsoever, well maybe I am thick, because it makes no sense to me at all.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

How can you say they are suiting their own agendas,as you pointed out they are NOT in the EU.
These Nations you accuse of giving the UK false and bad advice to remain in,are the very Nations the 'out' side would argue that the UK will have to try to deal with more if out.

If those Nations were expecting to do more trade directly with us if we left the EU,why on earth, if they were even in any way willing to accommodate that, would they be advising the UK to remain in.

That would make no sense whatsoever, well maybe I am thick, because it makes no sense to me at all.

eh? america want us in because as ive explained o you 101 times they want to carve up the EU for a corporate takeover
switzerland dont give a stuff if we are in or out as theyre doing fantastically and our fate is not their concern
the other voices are corporate leaders who have spent years aligned the eu for the worlds biggest ever corporate takeever

[bots]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Having said all that,I think the result will be to leave, carried only by the far South of England which will then open up more instability and chaos across the UK.
I do however think leaving is the likely result at this point in time anyway.
People being so sick of the 'over the heads' stuff being thrown at them by both sides.
So you may well get your wish.

I was just wondering how you get the impression that the south will vote out. I'm in the deep south, and those that I talk to are all for staying in. I'm not sure how London will vote however, as if there is a "patriotic" patch, that would be it.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I was just wondering how you get the impression that the south will vote out. I'm in the deep south, and those that I talk to are all for staying in. I'm not sure how London will vote however, as if there is a "patriotic" patch, that would be it.

Really, I gave up going to the South, the far South that is, it seemed very strongly and also determined to vote out,I think 6 out of every 10 people we mentioned the EU to, were in favour of coming out.
If you are finding different now then I am pleased as to that.

London is very different, I think London will massively vote to remain in the EU.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I was just wondering how you get the impression that the south will vote out. I'm in the deep south, and those that I talk to are all for staying in. I'm not sure how London will vote however, as if there is a "patriotic" patch, that would be it.

I think the poorer areas will be heavier brexitors as many feel the mass increase in population and immigration is hitting their jobs , wages , benefits, the economy and nhs waiting lists too..net immigration rose 3.7 million in the last 10 years...so the issue is very real..germany didnt allow open borders like us they employed a 7 year delay