[Ammi]

...'she allowed' herself to be touched by her fans, she invited it if that's what she did in her Wrecking Ball tour...sexual assault is all about non-consensual intimate touching ...there is no comparison at all to 'I don't even wait, I just grab them..'..non whatsoever because it's all about inferring non-consent in what he said he practised with females because he was a star...there is just no explanation that would make that a right thing to say and not very worrying....

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...'she allowed' herself to be touched by her fans, she invited it if that's what she did in her Wrecking Ball tour...sexual assault is all about non-consensual intimate touching ...there is no comparison at all to 'I don't even wait, I just grab them..'..non whatsoever because it's all about inferring non-consent in what he said he practised with females because he was a star...there is just no explanation that would make that a right thing to say and not very worrying....

All of this.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...'she allowed' herself to be touched by her fans, she invited it if that's what she did in her Wrecking Ball tour...sexual assault is all about non-consensual intimate touching ...there is no comparison at all to 'I don't even wait, I just grab them..'..non whatsoever because it's all about inferring non-consent in what he said he practised with females because he was a star...there is just no explanation that would make that a right thing to say and not very worrying....

I am referring SPECIFICALLY to those women who ALLOWED Trump to grope them Ammi. If Cyrus ALLOWING her fans to grope her does not constitute 'sexual assault', then how does certain women who have ALLOWED Trump to grope them constitute 'sexual assault'?

I am also pointing out the hypocrisy of a powerful and wealthy celebrity who lambastes another powerful and wealthy celebrity for 'abusing their power' - groping of certain women inclusive - who then uses her power to ALLOW her private parts to be groped.

SHE had the POWER NOT to allow this very public groping. She chose not to, because, in my opinion - just like her very public 'twerking' and other unsavoury publicity-mindful stunts - they are keeping her in the limelight and keeping the dollars rolling in.

There is, therefore, a very real parallel here - in that certain women ALLOWED Trump to grope them in the hopes of fame and fortune ensuing, and Miley Cyrus allows fans to grope her because she knows that will prolong her notoriety and preserve her fame and fortune.

My post have NOTHING whatsoever to do with whether Trump is a sexual predator or misogynist or not - I have already stated that he is on other threads - but everything to do with fairness and justice, what is right and wrong - in my opinion.

And in my opinion, moral-less, money hungry, fame *****s such as Miley Cyrus, do not make credible witnesses on the questions of abuse of power or morality.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I am referring SPECIFICALLY to those women who ALLOWED Trump to grope them Ammi. If Cyrus ALLOWING her fans to grope her does not constitute 'sexual assault', then how does certain women who have ALLOWED Trump to grope them constitute 'sexual assault'?

I am also pointing out the hypocrisy of a powerful and wealthy celebrity who lambastes another powerful and wealthy celebrity for 'abusing their power' - groping of certain women inclusive - who then uses her power to ALLOW her private parts to be groped.

SHE had the POWER NOT to allow this very public groping. She chose not to, because, in my opinion - just like her very public 'twerking' and other unsavoury publicity-mindful stunts - they are keeping her in the limelight and keeping the dollars rolling in.

There is, therefore, a very real parallel here - in that certain women ALLOWED Trump to grope them in the hopes of fame and fortune ensuing, and Miley Cyrus allows fans to grope her because she knows that will prolong her notoriety and preserve her fame and fortune.

My post have NOTHING whatsoever to do with whether Trump is a sexual predator or misogynist or not - I have already stated that he is on other threads - but everything to do with fairness and justice, what is right and wrong - in my opinion.

And in my opinion, moral-less, money hungry, fame *****s such as Miley Cyrus, do not make credible witnesses on the questions of abuse of power or morality.

..I'm sorry Kirk but it does feel a little like your 'fair and justice' is being quite selective with this and this thread about Miley...from the beginning of Trump time, music artist have used 'sexual' in their live performances...Elvis Presley for instance with his pelvic moves, which were a big part of who he was as an artist as well...and Miley's moves have become part of her as an artist...sexual is a big part of the music as well with many artists and always has been since the good old rock n roll days...but you're using words like unsavoury and questioning that she has a moral compass to criticise Donald Trump who was saying that his practise with females was sexual basically...that doesn't seem being fair and just to me, it does seem very judgemental of her../her live act etc...which is fine as well if it's how you feel but do you not see...it's a bit of a selective fair and just....anyone who doesn't practice sexual assault or has ever done is a 'credible witness' and so far as I'm aware, Miley hasn't....she has every right to question 'morality'....

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I'm sorry Kirk but it does feel a little like your 'fair and justice' is being quite selective with this and this thread about Miley...from the beginning of Trump time, music artist have used 'sexual' in their live performances...Elvis Presley for instance with his pelvic moves, which were a big part of who he was as an artist as well...and Miley's moves have become part of her as an artist...sexual is a big part of the music as well with many artists and always has been since the good old rock n roll days...but you're using words like unsavoury and questioning that she has a moral compass to criticise Donald Trump who was saying that his practise with females was sexual basically...that doesn't seem being fair and just to me, it does seem very judgemental of her../her live act etc...which is fine as well if it's how you feel but do you not see...it's a bit of a selective fair and just....anyone who doesn't practice sexual assault or has ever done is a 'credible witness' and so far as I'm aware, Miley hasn't....she has every right to question 'morality'....

I am an Elvis fan Ammi, and I have never seen one report or any footage showing Elvis allowing any fan to grope his manhood - and to me, THAT is EXACTLY what Miley Cyrus is doing in this clip.

Miley Cyrus has a huge amount of influence among the young people of the world, and all I am saying is that - judging by her very public conduct - she is less than qualified to be commenting upon anyone else's morals, especially from motives of 'Jump On The Bandwagon' 'Popularity Courting' for personal gain, as I firmly believe that she is.

By the way, I neither like or dislike her as an artiste.

My grouse is squarely on the unfairness of 'Witch Hunts' for the wrong reasons or lies, because there is enough to 'Hang' Trump for without suchlike.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I am an Elvis fan Ammi, and I have never seen one report or any footage showing Elvis allowing any fan to grope his manhood - and to me, THAT is EXACTLY what Miley Cyrus is doing in this clip.

Miley Cyrus has a huge amount of influence among the young people of the world, and all I am saying is that - judging by her very public conduct - she is less than qualified to be commenting upon anyone else's morals, especially from motives of 'Jump On The Bandwagon' 'Popularity Courting' for personal gain, as I firmly believe that she is.

By the way, I neither like or dislike her as an artiste.

My grouse is squarely on the unfairness of 'Witch Hunts' for the wrong reasons or lies, because there is enough to 'Hang' Trump for without suchlike.

....it's still very much part of how sexual is interpreted in music live performances as well though Kirk...it doesn't have to directly equate to be something that through time (some and many artists) have and have had as part of their live acts but much like an actor when they play characters, it doesn't reflect anything about them morally...I know some Miley fans...( I actually only know a few Miley fans that I've spoken to before about her in the past...)...who love her/her music/her style/her performances etc but don't take any 'moral influence' in their lives from her whatsoever...no one is witch-hunting Donald Trump, Kirk...his reference to sexual assault being a code of his practice wasn't in the context of any type of character or performance or entertainment etc...it's his words, his character for saying those words and quite revealing of him as a person 'of power'...when he's going for the most powerful job in the world, this is all him...no one needs to witch hunt...

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...'she allowed' herself to be touched by her fans, she invited it if that's what she did in her Wrecking Ball tour...sexual assault is all about non-consensual intimate touching ...there is no comparison at all to 'I don't even wait, I just grab them..'..non whatsoever because it's all about inferring non-consent in what he said he practised with females because he was a star...there is just no explanation that would make that a right thing to say and not very worrying....

All of this too for me, he was bragging about doing it without any invite or consent at all from whoever may be his selected targets.
Massive difference, in my view anyway.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

All of this too for me, he was bragging about doing it without any invite or consent at all from whoever may be his selected targets.
Massive difference, in my view anyway.

Why don't you expound on your view Joey - as a solicitor - I would be interested to know what you think to 'Trial by Media'? of someone who has yet to be charged with any of these alleged sexual assaults, and what you think to allegation without evidence?

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Why don't you expound on your view Joey - as a solicitor - I would be interested to know what you think to 'Trial by Media'? of someone who has yet to be charged with any of these alleged sexual assaults, and what you think to allegation without evidence?

Remember what they did to Cliff Richard? Guilty as charged until proven innocent apparently... is this the new standard these days?

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Why don't you expound on your view Joey - as a solicitor - I would be interested to know what you think to 'Trial by Media'? of someone who has yet to be charged with any of these alleged sexual assaults, and what you think to allegation without evidence?

Donald Trump's campaign plans to go 'buck wild' and paint Bill Clinton 'as Bill Cosby'

I heard the same thing being said on media outlets just before the 2nd debate. It looks like Clinton team got there first and are just better at this kind of thing.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Donald Trump's campaign plans to go 'buck wild' and paint Bill Clinton 'as Bill Cosby'

I heard the same thing being said on media outlets just before the 2nd debate. It looks like Clinton team got there first and are just better at this kind of thing.

I totally agree - THAT is EXACTLY what I think has happened.

But this does not alter the facts, that this is NOT how Presidential Elections should be fought.

And I do not think that the allegations so suddenly being made against Trump by these women are as 'cut and dried' as the Media would have us believe.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I totally agree - THAT is EXACTLY what I think has happened.

But this does not alter the facts, that this is NOT how Presidential Elections should be fought.

And I do not think that the allegations so suddenly being made against Trump by these women are as 'cut and dried' as the Media would have us believe.

Agree this is not how the election should go but I dont think Clinton is the one who got us where we are. The comments made by Trump in the two debates and thru out the primaries he had nicknames for all his opponents lying Ted, Little Marco, Low Energy Jeb this went along way to winning the nomination. In debates Trump insults and zingers were the only lines any one could remember. Trump directly insulted Ted Cruzs wife and Carly Fiorino's appearance. Now we come to the general in his campaign team he has two of the greatest hatchet merchants in American media in Roger Ailes and Steve Bannon and they tried the same tactics of insults and innuendoes but they found the Clinton machine is better funded and better organized. I feel it is Trump who bought us to this all time low in the election.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Why don't you expound on your view Joey - as a solicitor - I would be interested to know what you think to 'Trial by Media'? of someone who has yet to be charged with any of these alleged sexual assaults, and what you think to allegation without evidence?

Actually Kirk, and you should know this anyway from my anger at the treatment of Cliff Richard as to the media.

I hate trial by media and while you are right he has not been charged with anything, 'yet', and possibly may of course never be.
However we all heard he himself state in his own words that he has done this and acted this way, even towards married Women too, not that being married or single as any relevance
So by his own mouth he admits doing or showed intent on doing same.
As to evidence or lack of it, well he himself stated he did this,if he was being honest about that, little more as to more evidence other than victims coming forward are needed.

If he was only bragging to seem big and supposedly clever, then he has failed on both counts and only looks really disgusting for even publicly thinking that way and expressing same.
He also actually looks rather stupid too, if he was not being serious, again in my view.

The point still is, he claims to have done this without Womens consent or even knowledge,
A far cry from Miley Cyrus inviting it at a stage performance.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Actually Kirk, and you should know this anyway from my anger at the treatment of Cliff Richard as to the media.

I hate trial by media and while you are right he has not been charged with anything, 'yet', and possibly may of course never be.
However we all heard he himself state in his own words that he has done this and acted this way, even towards married Women too, not that being married or single as any relevance
So by his own mouth he admits doing or showed intent on doing same.
As to evidence or lack of it, well he himself stated he did this,if he was being honest about that, little more as to more evidence other than victims coming forward are needed.

If he was only bragging to seem big and supposedly clever, then he has failed on both counts and only looks really disgusting for even publicly thinking that way and expressing same.
He also actually looks rather stupid too, if he was not being serious, again in my view.

The point still is, he claims to have done this without Womens consent or even knowledge,
A far cry from Miley Cyrus inviting it at a stage performance.

I was not having a go at you Joey - your stance on the Cliff case was exactly as mine, which is why I asked you to expound on your differing view here.

I do not GENUINELY KNOW if Trump is guilty of being a sexual predator or not, but I just know when something is not right, and there is so much with this affair which does not sit right.

Thank you for responding and welcome back.

[kirklancaster]

I have genuinely been 'taken aback' by some of the hostile and very personal reaction on here just because I am honestly proffering a different view - something which is the very purpose of a forum surely?

Perhaps, I should merely start posting statements which I do not believe but which I know will be popular?

Sorry, I cannot do that.

Nothing is Black and White in this world, and I find it greatly ironic, that some of those who are the most vociferous in decrying the Media when the target may be Corbyn or an appeal to the Electorate to vote for Brexit, are the first to succumb without question to the Media when its target is Trump -- a man whom they detest anyway.

Well, sorry, I cannot help questioning.

So while some of my former friends on here are digesting what I have already written, or vomiting because of it, I will move on to the real reason why I started this thread - the witnesses proper, or Plaintiffs as it soon may be.

Summer Zervos

Zervos was on the fifth season of the The Apprentice in 2006.

She appeared at a press conference in Los Angeles on Friday the 14th of October 2016, with her Attorney - Gloria Allred - and alleged that during her time on the Apprentice (2006), Trump had lured her to his bungalow and sexually assaulted her:

"He put me in an embrace and I tried to push him away. I pushed his chest to put space between us and I said, 'Come on man, get real.' He repeated my words back to me, 'Get real,' as he began thrusting his genitals."

Well, that is version 1 which has been reported.

Here's version 2. :

In this reported version, Zervos claimed at the press conference that Donald Trump groped her during an employment meeting in 2007.

Ms Zervos claims that she contacted Mr Trump regarding an employment opportunity and was denied a meeting over lunch. She was then asked to meet him at his hotel in Beverly Hills.

She says that when she arrived, he kissed her on the lips and he said he’d love to work with her. He asked her to lie down on the bed and that he began “thrusting his genitals." She says that she made it clear that she was turning down his advances and he eventually began discussing business with her.

“As I was about to leave, he again kissed me on the lips,” Ms Zervos explained. “This made me feel nervous and embarrassed this is not what I wanted or expected.”

One year apart, different locations and one sexual assault committed by Trump whilst she was voluntarily lying on the bed which Trump had asked her to do.

A strange request and even stranger compliance given that it was a 'business meeting' which she had attended for, and that Trump had already kissed her on the lips without permission.

Also very strange how Zervos allowed herself to be maneuvered into the bedroom after already being kissed by Trump without consent, for one would presume that a man like Trump does not reside in one room bedsit type hotel accommodation.

It must be borne in mind that this was no timid country girl fresh into the big city, Zervos was already then, bright and relatively sophisticated.

Q: Would you go into a bedroom with Trump when you were supposed to be having a 'Business Meeting', and meekly lie down on the bed when asked, after he had kissed you on your mouth without consent?

But, anyway:

No sooner had Ms Zervos made her press conference allegations, her own cousin - issued a statement saying that he was 'shocked' by her claims:

John Barry - who is said to be 'close to her' said:

"I am completely shocked and bewildered by my cousin, Summer Zervos, and her press conference today. Ever since she was on The Apprentice she has had nothing but glowing things to say about Mr. Trump,” the statement reads.

Barry said that Zervos frequently described Trump as kind and an inspiration to her professionally, and that she “converted her friends and our family to become Trump supporters.”

“That was until Summer invited Mr. Trump to her restaurant during the primary and he said no. I think Summer wishes she could still be on reality TV, and in an effort to get that back she’s saying all of these negative things about Mr. Trump,” the statement continued.

“That’s not how she talked about him before. I can only imagine that Summer’s actions today are nothing more than an attempt to regain the spotlight at Mr. Trump’s expense, and I don’t think it reflects well.”

Further research shows that Zervos did indeed voluntarily contact Trump TWICE after the alleged assault, because the Trump campaign released an email from Zervos to Trump's secretary dated April 14, 2016, in which Zervos talks about her California restaurant and says she hopes to reconnect with the GOP nominee.

“Mr. Trump has a great deal of support in Huntington Beach, Ca!” she wrote. “He has witnessed both my highs and lows operating a small business and I am pleased to report business is good.”

She then added: “I would greatly appreciate reconnecting at this time. He will know my intentions are genuine.”

Q: Would you voluntarily seek another 'Business Meeting' with Trump after he had already sexually assaulted you several times during your first 'Business Meeting'?

Q: Would you word your email in such a way as that above?

After Trump IGNORED her first email, on the 21st April 2016 - just one week after her first email, and hardly allowing time for such a busy high flier as Trump to respond - Zervos then sent a further email with a request that it be delivered DIRECTLY to Trump.

She wrote:

"In that email, I stated, 'Your interest in me as a potential employee meant the world to me. Your interest in me as anything more blew my mind, and I lost my footing.' I further said, 'I have been incredibly hurt by our previous interaction.' I ended by stating, 'I hope to hear from you and wish you continued success.”

Trump NEVER replied.

'Blew My Mind' and 'Lost My Footing' are really curious expressions to use in an email appeal to a man who has repeatedly sexually assaulted you to describe the effects on you of the assaults - far more curious than, say, 'Shocked and upset me' and 'I was afraid and bewildered'.

In fact the phrase; 'Blew my mind' can mean 'to mentally disturb', but the more common usage today is to describe being 'overwhelmed with excitement or pleasure'.

Similarly, the phrase 'Lost my footing' is often used by authors in descriptive passages concerning love and obsession. Lolita author Vladimir Nabokov was fond of the phrase and used it in his 'Letters to Véra' in a passage about very obsessional love.

Q: Would you use such phrases to describe the effects on you of the sexual assaults he perpetrated against you?

Now, I am not Donald trump or Ms Zervos, and I do not know what really transpired between them, but I do know when something is not quite as it is being sold to us by the Media, and apart from the fact that NOWHERE does Ms Zernos seem to have complained about Trump Sexually Assaulting her until now — a few short weeks before the Presidential Election - is the fact that she voluntarily sent to Trump TWO emails virtually begging him for another 'Business Meeting' just a few short months ago.

I also doubt that because of the above, Ms Zervos cannot claim that she was timid and too afraid to say anything but was bolstered by the other women coming forward.

So shoot me if you want for questioning beyond the headlines as I ALWAYS do, but I'm sorry - something about this particular case does not sit right with me.

Here is Trump's denial:

Q: Based on the current state-of-information, do you feel that if Zervos litigates against Trump, that she stads a good chance of winning?