[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Neither have you from what I know so does that mean we should discount what you have to say as well? It's a silly and lazy argument that's designed to discount opinions that someone can't argue against.

TS has the right of it, it doesn't matter who the killed party was. All that matters is that they were apprehended. Killing someone in combat situations is fine but executing them without due course when they've been detained is not and the court obviously agrees.

You can't have soldiers that act out like that, order must be maintained within the troops or it all falls apart, you don't need battlefield experience to understand that.

Actually, I have been in several war zones, although I was fully protected by armed guards. And I'm a military widow and that gives me some insight into it. I've worked in Israel, I've been to Palestine several times, I'vbe been to Iraq and Syria and the refugee camps in Jordan.

No one's saying people don'y have the right to say whatever they want. But I also have the right to say what I said, from a stronger, more informed position.

And as for not needing battlefield experience to understand that order must be maintained... Well, battlefield experience will teach you that soldiers are human beings with human reactions and emotions. Putting on a uniform and doing basic training doesn't make you into a robot.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Livia

Actually, I have been in several war zones, although I was fully protected by armed guards. And I'm a military widow and that gives me some insight into it. I've worked in Israel, I've been to Palestine several times, I'vbe been to Iraq and Syria and the refugee camps in Jordan.

No one's saying people don'y have the right to say whatever they want. But I also have the right to say what I said, from a stronger, more informed position.

And as for not needing battlefield experience to understand that order must be maintained... Well, battlefield experience will teach you that soldiers are human beings with human reactions and emotions. Putting on a uniform and doing basic training doesn't make you into a robot.

I think this one being an ex sergeant has undergone a bit more than "basic training"

[Livia]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I think this one being an ex sergeant has undergone a bit more than "basic training"

Yes. He will have seen the regular attrocities carried out daily by Palestinians that are never reported.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yes. He will have seen the regular attrocities carried out daily by Palestinians that are never reported.

And he will have been trained in how to deal with that, which is why he has been tried and convicted for his crime. Maybe also the reason it was manslaughter and not the murder it should have been.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by parmnion

And he will have been trained in how to deal with that, which is why he has been tried and convicted for his crime. Maybe also the reason it was manslaughter and not the murder it should have been.

Pointless discussing this with someone who imagines they have all the answers.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Actually, I have been in several war zones, although I was fully protected by armed guards. And I'm a military widow and that gives me some insight into it. I've worked in Israel, I've been to Palestine several times, I'vbe been to Iraq and Syria and the refugee camps in Jordan.

No one's saying people don'y have the right to say whatever they want. But I also have the right to say what I said, from a stronger, more informed position.

And as for not needing battlefield experience to understand that order must be maintained... Well, battlefield experience will teach you that soldiers are human beings with human reactions and emotions. Putting on a uniform and doing basic training doesn't make you into a robot.

Nor does a uniform make you infallible or above the law, recently there has been media attention on soldiers and their part in torture and killings deemed unlawful.
Personally I don't agree with that as I don't believe their actions were not ordered, they would be nothing but scapegoats if there were any repercussions.

[y.winter]

Originally Posted by parmnion

None of that has anything to do with my argument. Did this dead palastinian do all that?
Is all that any worse than soldiers firing live rounds at kids throwing stones? We all saw how that can end through the lens of a dead cameraman hugging a shot kid before he himself was blasted of the face of the earth as he lay desperate and helpless..an innocent man this time.

I find it amazing and diagusting that this is the first time a soldier in uniform has been brought to justice for his crimes.


Anyway.. I am not really on about the past, i'm on about this one particular event which for me shows a.soldier in uniform kill an unarmed and neatrolized assailant...

I assume you agreed with all the attrocities carried out by US GI's in vietnam, or is that a stupid thing to say!

My post was an answer to what I quoted which was you basically saying that you speak based about the few things you saw and read. I gave you an example of how narrow is it to base your facts when you know little.
Look, I don't care if you're for or against the Israeli soldier, you're entitled to have your opinion on that. I didn't support him either. But stating with such a great confidence that the man on the ground isn't a terrorist is what I can't understand.

Originally Posted by parmnion

They quote him and there is no word of terrorist...so until you quote him saying terrorist i will stick by what i said.

Are you out of your mind?! Do you have any idea of how long does the whole thing has been going on? Do you know how many interviews, how many statements have been released since then by the PM, the IDF, Ex-Generals etc? The Palestinian man's actions are old news, we all know his part in the event. The statement was about Elor being found guilty fgs. Are you seriously basing your facts on one statement, one of dozens, which don't even mention the Palestinian? That's it?
It's a joke.

Please define what's a terrorist, because your opinions and allegedly facts are making me worry.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

And as for not needing battlefield experience to understand that order must be maintained... Well, battlefield experience will teach you that soldiers are human beings with human reactions and emotions. Putting on a uniform and doing basic training doesn't make you into a robot.

I genuinely don't understand your position at all... no, they are not robots, people snap but it can't simply be brushed under the carpet without consequence without essentially abandoning discipline and order, allowing soldiers to do whatever the **** they want in a war zone, and going down a path which will definitely result in those very same soldiers being at increased risk... because they're surrounded by loose cannons who are not following the rules or their orders.

How is any of this in any way positive?

Modern militaries are highly structured, highly organised, and have a very clear chain of command. For a REASON. Because it is effective, efficient, and helps to keep people, both civilians and soldiers, safer.

But yeah why not. Let's just arm them to the teeth and let them go at it like Rambo, because they're only human after all, and because terrorism. It'll be fine.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Nor does a uniform make you infallible or above the law, recently there has been media attention on soldiers and their part in torture and killings deemed unlawful.
Personally I don't agree with that as I don't believe their actions were not ordered, they would be nothing but scapegoats if there were any repercussions.

yeah, well... I'm sure like everything else, you think you're right.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I genuinely don't understand your position at all... no, they are not robots, people snap but it can't simply be brushed under the carpet without consequence without essentially abandoning discipline and order, allowing soldiers to do whatever the **** they want in a war zone, and going down a path which will definitely result in those very same soldiers being at increased risk... because they're surrounded by loose cannons who are not following the rules or their orders.

How is any of this in any way positive?

Modern militaries are highly structured, highly organised, and have a very clear chain of command. For a REASON. Because it is effective, efficient, and helps to keep people, both civilians and soldiers, safer.

But yeah why not. Let's just arm them to the teeth and let them go at it like Rambo, because they're only human after all, and because terrorism. It'll be fine.

No, you clearly don't.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Livia

Pointless discussing this with someone who imagines they have all the answers.

What i do know is you dont judge a man on the actions of others.

You are the one excusing his actions because of past events like they are all the answers..so we will leave it there eh..

[Beso]

Originally Posted by y.winter

My post was an answer to what I quoted which was you basically saying that you speak based about the few things you saw and read. I gave you an example of how narrow is it to base your facts when you know little.
Look, I don't care if you're for or against the Israeli soldier, you're entitled to have your opinion on that. I didn't support him either. But stating with such a great confidence that the man on the ground isn't a terrorist is what I can't understand.



Are you out of your mind?! Do you have any idea of how long does the whole thing has been going on? Do you know how many interviews, how many statements have been released since then by the PM, the IDF, Ex-Generals etc? The Palestinian man's actions are old news, we all know his part in the event. The statement was about Elor being found guilty fgs. Are you seriously basing your facts on one statement, one of dozens, which don't even mention the Palestinian? That's it?
It's a joke.

Please define what's a terrorist, because your opinions and allegedly facts are making me worry.

I would probably class the dead palestinian as a freedom fighter, someone who believes they have had 1000 of years of history were just taken away from them..i know i would fight back. Maybe not like he did, but i would somehow..wouldnt you?

The court has obviously disregarded the terrorist angle or im sure it would have been mentioned somewhere..it hasn't..so yeah sorry..to me he was a freedom fighter.

[Livia]

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by parmnion

What i do know is you dont judge a man on the actions of others.

You are the one excusing his actions because of past events like they are all the answers..so we will leave it there eh..

Actually, I am looking at it from a miliary angle and with extensive experience of the problems in Israel, including the back history of this incident. You're looking at it after reading the edited story on the Internet.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The recent series of attacks against Israelis is the direct result of incitement by radical Islamist and terrorist elements, calling on Palestinian youth to murder Jews. ​​

Fifteen months of terror – 13 September 2015 to the present

Since 13 September 2015, 42 people have been killed in terrorist attacks and 602 people (including 4 Palestinians) injured.
There have been 167 stabbing attacks and 89 attempted stabbings; 116 shootings; 48 vehicular (ramming) attacks; and one vehicle (bus) bombing

According to the Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC), beginning in September 2015, there has been a wave of terrorist attacks which began on the Temple Mount and in east Jerusalem. The attacks later spread to Judea and Samaria and even crossed the Green Line into Israel under the battle cry of "Al-Aqsa mosque is in danger."
The current wave of terrorist attacks is part of the PA's strategy of "popular resistance" (i.e., popular terrorism) adopted by the PA and Fatah at the Sixth Fatah conference in August 2009. Statements by Fatah, Hamas and PIJ spokespersons have described the attacks as "heroic actions" and "the natural response to Israel's crimes".

http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/...ober-2015.aspx


who would be an Israeli soldier?

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Livia

Actually, I am looking at it from a miliary angle and with extensive experience of the problems in Israel, including the back history of this incident. You're looking at it after reading the edited story on the Internet.

No, im looking at it from the verdict made by a millitary court and my disgust at the crime he was found guilty of by that military court after i viewed the video a few times for myself.most worrying is the time between the stabbing and the final shooting..

[Livia]

Originally Posted by parmnion

No, im looking at it from the verdict made by a millitary court and my disgust at the crime he was found guilty of by that military court after i viewed the video a few times for myself.most worrying is the time between the stabbing and the final shooting..

You know, if I were you, I'd find something more worthy to worry about.

[y.winter]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I would probably class the dead palestinian as a freedom fighter, someone who believes they have had 1000 of years of history were just taken away from them..i know i would fight back. Maybe not like he did, but i would somehow..wouldnt you?

Killing helpless man on the ground = murderer!!!
(Attempt of) Killing a soldier standing = freedom fighter!
How romantic. Sprinkle some glitter on it to increase the level of cuteness.

The court has obviously disregarded the terrorist angle or im sure it would have been mentioned somewhere..it hasn't..so yeah sorry..to me he was a freedom fighter.

Did you read the verdict for being (again) so confident of your assumptions. Sorry, I mean facts. Does it go by the same rule of parmnion didn't read it = it didn't happen/not true. Weird logic.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

You do realise that that phrase is usually said with the intention of understanding the motivations of terrorists... right?

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Livia

You know, if I were you, I'd find something more worthy to worry about.

But you are not me are you.

Stop trying to belittle my opinion livia. We have all suffered in life but it doesnt make ones point of view more relevent than others..how about addressing the attrocities carried out by the jewish isāraelis for a change..like the ones ive mentioned about the boy and cameraman...cause they wern't terrorists yet both ended up dead at the hands of israeli soldiers.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by y.winter

Killing helpless man on the ground = murderer!!!
(Attempt of) Killing a soldier standing = freedom fighter!
How romantic. Sprinkle some glitter on it to increase the level of cuteness.



Did you read the verdict for being (again) so confident of your assumptions. Sorry, I mean facts. Does it go by the same rule of parmnion didn't read it = it didn't happen/not true. Weird logic.

Put up a quote then from the verdict...not all of it, just the part about the man being a terrorist..save your time pal cause you wont find it

[Beso]

Oh and i never claim my opinion ia fact...if i do i usually put FACT next to it..or if i am trying to sway someone i dont accuse them of not gaining all the facts i usually show them the bit of info missing from their point of view..so ywinter..no, i am not going to read the verdict as it took the court 12 hours to read it out but i can assume that seeing as no tv station out of the 8 or 9 i have been following the story on has described the dead palastinian as a terrorist then tht same courts verdict did not describe him as such either.....

[y.winter]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Put up a quote then from the verdict...not all of it, just the part about the man being a terrorist..save your time pal cause you wont find it

Again, so confident. Also: pigs with wings exist. Prove me wrong. That's your logic.

And as for the verdict, I'll happily give you one. Do you understand Hebrew?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by parmnion

But you are not me are you.

Stop trying to belittle my opinion livia. We have all suffered in life but it doesnt make ones point of view more relevent than others..how about addressing the attrocities carried out by the jewish isāraelis for a change..like the ones ive mentioned about the boy and cameraman...cause they wern't terrorists yet both ended up dead at the hands of israeli soldiers.

Well said I agree, it's not nice to feel you are being railroaded from a thread we can't all have direct experience of every topic we discuss here.
It's a valid point that uniforms are not a licence to kill.

[y.winter]

Oh, you already gave up. never mind.