[Brillopad]

Lefties, if you want to save the NHS become Brexiteers - an article from Spiked Magazine 12th May 2017.

'Yes, you can always tell when an election is upon us because it's time 'to save the NHS'. There are 14 days to save the NHS as Tony Blair said in April 1997 for example. Labour has been cynically wheeling out the line that the tories are going to privitise the NHS since the 1990s. They have vowed to 'save the NHS' since the 1980s. It's a dismal and pathetic strategy which only exposes the hollowness of a party that began to lose its heart and purpose in the 1960s, when the takeover of the working-class movement by the upper-middle class social liberals began in earnest. Shouty alarmism is all it's got left now.

Because, as you will have noticed, over the past 40 years the Conservatives have never privatised the NHS. Sure they have scaled back the number of free-upon-demand services and introduced the private sector into various areas. And some have talked of privatising it. But there's never been privatisation. And neither will the evil tories ever do so. It would be electoral suicide. Most conservative supporters are not free-market fundamentalists - they consider it 'our NHS' too.

Yet it is true that there is a body of free-market fundamentalists who would like to privitise the NHS, and it's the European Union - that body, which remember, dear Labour manifesto writers, still forbids the re-nationalisation of 'our railways' or our 'postal services', because that would break one of its iron principles: the free market'.

Very interesting article, which casts a dark shadow over Labour Party policies and its constant attempts to use the NHS as some sort of 'bargaining chip'. It is simply preying on the fears of the working-class on losing their much valued NHS. I personally found the above article informative and thought- provoking - thoughts please.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Lefties, if you want to save the NHS become Brexiteers - an article from Spiked Magazine 12th May 2017.

'Yes, you can always tell when an election is upon us because it's time 'to save the NHS'. There are 14 days to save the NHS as Tony Blair said in April 1997 for example. Labour has been cynically wheeling out the line that the tories are going to privitise the NHS since the 1990s. They have vowed to 'save the NHS' since the 1980s. It's a dismal and pathetic strategy which only exposes the hollowness of a party that began to lose its heart and purpose in the 1960s, when the takeover of the working-class movement by the upper-middle class social liberals began in earnest. Shouty alarmism is all it's got left now.

Because, as you will have noticed, over the past 40 years the Conservatives have never privatised the NHS. Sure they have scaled back the number of free-upon-demand services and introduced the private sector into various areas. And some have talked of privatising it. But there's never been privatisation. And neither will the evil tories ever do so. It would be electoral suicide. Most conservative supporters are not free-market fundamentalists - they consider it 'our NHS' too.

Yet it is true that there is a body of free-market fundamentalists who would like to privitise the NHS, and it's the European Union - that body, which remember, dear Labour manifesto writers, still forbids the re-nationalisation of 'our railways' or our 'postal services', because that would break one of its iron principles: the free market'.

Very interesting article, which casts a dark shadow over Labour Party policies and its constant attempts to use the NHS as some sort of 'bargaining chip'. It is simply preying on the fears of the working-class on losing their much valued NHS. I personally found the above article informative and thought- provoking - thoughts please.

Yeah.. that's what privatisation is, albeit by stealth.

Thanks for the recommendation to read this 'spiked' article, but as everyone knows not just lefties nobody told us a bigger lie than the £350 million a week one in the brexit campaign.

I do however agree with this ' the takeover of the working-class movement by the upper-middle class social liberals began in earnest.' Which is why I am still a labour supporter as I feel a Labour under Corbyn will pre date 'new Labour.' in it's appeal.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Lefties, if you want to save the NHS become Brexiteers - an article from Spiked Magazine 12th May 2017.

'Yes, you can always tell when an election is upon us because it's time 'to save the NHS'. There are 14 days to save the NHS as Tony Blair said in April 1997 for example. Labour has been cynically wheeling out the line that the tories are going to privitise the NHS since the 1990s. They have vowed to 'save the NHS' since the 1980s. It's a dismal and pathetic strategy which only exposes the hollowness of a party that began to lose its heart and purpose in the 1960s, when the takeover of the working-class movement by the upper-middle class social liberals began in earnest. Shouty alarmism is all it's got left now.

Because, as you will have noticed, over the past 40 years the Conservatives have never privatised the NHS. Sure they have scaled back the number of free-upon-demand services and introduced the private sector into various areas. And some have talked of privatising it. But there's never been privatisation. And neither will the evil tories ever do so. It would be electoral suicide. Most conservative supporters are not free-market fundamentalists - they consider it 'our NHS' too.

Yet it is true that there is a body of free-market fundamentalists who would like to privitise the NHS, and it's the European Union - that body, which remember, dear Labour manifesto writers, still forbids the re-nationalisation of 'our railways' or our 'postal services', because that would break one of its iron principles: the free market'.

Very interesting article, which casts a dark shadow over Labour Party policies and its constant attempts to use the NHS as some sort of 'bargaining chip'. It is simply preying on the fears of the working-class on losing their much valued NHS. I personally found the above article informative and thought- provoking - thoughts please.

That's a very interesting article, thanks for sharing Brillo, though I am sure I read somewhere that Germany had a nationalised rail service. Or I could be misremembering what I'd read. Or maybe it was something about it being a private company that owned their rail but the government owned all the shares, something like that.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

That's a very interesting article, thanks for sharing Brillo, though I am sure I read somewhere that Germany had a nationalised rail service. Or I could be misremembering what I'd read. Or maybe it was something about it being a private company that owned their rail but the government owned all the shares, something like that.

Or that that theirs is nationalised and they own part of ours?

Google is your friend.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015...n_8003970.html

[Tom4784]

White noise. Mention EU, Benefits, Terrorism or Immigration and you can get away with anything. That's the gist of the Tory playbook. Blaming EU is just another play by desperate Tory supporters who are starting to realise that a Tory win is not as assured as it was when the Election was announced.

Mentioning that the Tories haven't abolished the NHS in 40 years is not a guarantee that it's not something they are aiming for now and, tbh, it probably wouldn't be suicide to abolish the NHS because, like I said before, people will **** themselves over if they think they are doing the same to immigrants or people on benefits or any other scapegoat. Tories have gotten away with their bull**** for years by trading on people's prejudices, 'who cares what their policies are? They're against immigration so I'll vote for them!'

If the Tories win, the UK will deserve everything it gets as a result of it.

[DemolitionRed]

I'm not surprised you were attracted to this article Brillo. It was written by none other than right wing Patrick West who believes most people who vote Labour are rich people who feel guilty for their wealth. He also wrote a book titled, "The Poverty of Multiculturalism"

Most of what he's written in that article is absolute nonsense.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I'm not surprised you were attracted to this article Brillo. It was written by none other than right wing Patrick West who believes most people who vote Labour are rich people who feel guilty for their wealth. He also wrote a book titled, "The Poverty of Multiculturalism"

Most of what he's written in that article is absolute nonsense.

I knew someone would say that. Yes it is a moderately right magazine but I don't see you objecting to left-thinking posters regularly posting from left-wing sources ie the independent etc. Works both ways. The Express also carried a similar article. And it makes sense.

Under Article 106 the EU prohibits public monopolies exercising exclusive rights when this violates EU competition rules - Left Futures.

[DemolitionRed]

I'm not saying the EU isn't neoliberal. There's no denying they are, but whilst its forced neoliberal ideologies across the continent, Britain has been neoliberal since Thatcher. The Tories can't defend us from the European Union any more than the European Union can defend us from the Tories because they are both following the same ideologies.

Patrick West states in that article that the Tories had to get out of the EU because of the TTIP. Why then, was Cameron leading at the helm to push the TTIP through before Obama retired from office?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I'm not saying the EU isn't neoliberal. There's no denying they are, but whilst its forced neoliberal ideologies across the continent, Britain has been neoliberal since Thatcher. The Tories can't defend us from the European Union any more than the European Union can defend us from the Tories because they are both following the same ideologies.

Patrick West states in that article that the Tories had to get out of the EU because of the TTIP. Why then, was Cameron leading at the helm to push the TTIP through before Obama retired from office?

I have no idea what goes on in Cameron's head, other than self-interest of course, but as he is no longer part of government I no longer care.

Until recently I was not aware of Article 106 and the EUs desire to de-nationalise public services and put them up for private tender. As part of the EU that would apply to our NHS. How many others are not aware of this I wonder.

Whatever some choose to believe about the tories wanting to privatise the NHS, of which there is little evidence, I feel that being part of the EU would pose a far greater risk of that happening than it would under the tories.

Beware folks the EU is the devil in disguise. As the article says 'the EU's worship of corporate capitalism doesn't fit in with the cosy narrative of the European Union being a humane, fluffy liberal force for the good'.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I knew someone would say that. Yes it is a moderately right magazine but I don't see you objecting to left-thinking posters regularly posting from left-wing sources ie the independent etc. Works both ways. The Express also carried a similar article. And it makes sense.

Under Article 106 the EU prohibits public monopolies exercising exclusive rights when this violates EU competition rules - Left Futures.

If you are stupid enough to privatise your infrastructure one might say that you deserve all you get, Germany weren't that stupid.

If brexit gives us one thing it will hopefully be the power to re nationalise everything we were crazy enough to give away.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I have no idea what goes on in Cameron's head, other than self-interest of course, but as he is no longer part of government I no longer care.

Until recently I was not aware of Article 106 and the EUs desire to de-nationalise public services and put them up for private tender. As part of the EU that would apply to our NHS. How many others are not aware of this I wonder.

I wrote about this extensively before the referendum.

Whatever some choose to believe about the tories wanting to privatise the NHS, of which there is little evidence, I feel that being part of the EU would pose a far greater risk of that happening than it would under the tories.

There is extensive evidence about the NHS being sold off but you have to look for it because as loud as the revelations are, the blues are experts at rolling the carpet over it.

Beware folks the EU is the devil in disguise. As the article says 'the EU's worship of corporate capitalism doesn't fit in with the cosy narrative of the European Union being a humane, fluffy liberal force for the good'.

[/QUOTE]
And neither does the Tory government who now want to hold hands with Trump and his trade deal http://labourlist.org/2017/01/trump-...nion-tell-may/

Collecting truths from the Tories about the NHS is like trying to find hens teeth.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I wrote about this extensively before the referendum.


There is extensive evidence about the NHS being sold off but you have to look for it because as loud as the revelations are, the blues are experts at rolling the carpet over it.

And neither does the Tory government who now want to hold hands with Trump and his trade deal http://labourlist.org/2017/01/trump-...nion-tell-may/

Collecting truths from the Tories about the NHS is like trying to find hens teeth.[/QUOTE]

If that is the case then it it is a foregone conclusion that privatisation of the NHS will occur in or out of the EU.

It is inevitable as part of the EU Trade agreements if Britain remain in the EU and according to some very likely under the tories. As the former is pretty much a certainty - for those on here that use saving the NHS as a reason to stay in the EU is laughable - maybe they should read up a bit on TTIP, CETA and TiSA. Personally I would rather put my trust in the tories, as previously mentioned it would be electoral suicide for them to privatise the NHS, than trust the EU with all their 'secret' negotiations.

I really can't believe the hypocrisy, or ignorance, of those who shout very loudly about staying in the EU but then harp on equally as loudly about protecting our NHS. We can't have both.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

And neither does the Tory government who now want to hold hands with Trump and his trade deal http://labourlist.org/2017/01/trump-...nion-tell-may/

Collecting truths from the Tories about the NHS is like trying to find hens teeth.

If that is the case then it it is a foregone conclusion that privatisation of the NHS will occur in or out of the EU.

It is inevitable as part of the EU Trade agreements if Britain remain in the EU and according to some very likely under the tories. As the former is pretty much a certainty - for those on here that use saving the NHS as a reason to stay in the EU is laughable - maybe they should read up a bit on TTIP, CETA and TiSA. Personally I would rather put my trust in the tories, as previously mentioned it would be electoral suicide for them to privatise the NHS, than trust the EU with all their 'secret' negotiations.

I really can't believe the hypocrisy, or ignorance, of those who shout very loudly about staying in the EU but then harp on equally as loudly about protecting our NHS. We can't have both.

I could flip that back at you, I can't believe the hypocrisy, ignorance or just plain blinkered arrogance of championing the tories corner when they have already all but privatised the NHS on the quiet already, the guy in charge wrote a book on it!

A quick search will show you Branson bought adult social care this year, which begs the question why were we asked to subsidise this via council tax?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I could flip that back at you, I can't believe the hypocrisy, ignorance or just plain blinkered arrogance of championing the tories corner when they have already all but privatised the NHS on the quiet already, the guy in charge wrote a book on it!

A quick search will show you Branson bought adult social care this year, which begs the question why were we asked to subsidise this via council tax?

The EU will privatise those services. You are aware of that I take it. So what does it have to do with leaving the EU or not.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

The EU will privatise those services. You are aware of that I take it. So what does it have to do with leaving the EU or not.

They wouldn't have to it's already done :/

CETA is nothing to do with us btw, the others any member states government has the power to veto AFTER negotiotions... unlike brexit.
You are aware of this I take it?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

They wouldn't have to it's already done :/

CETA is nothing to do with us btw, the others any member states government has the power to veto AFTER negotiotions... unlike brexit.
You are aware of this I take it?

How is it already done - evidence? Social Services and the NHS are still publically funded.

Luckily for us Brexit is our get out clause. I wouldn't trust the EU further than I could throw them.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Lefties, if you want to save the NHS become Brexiteers - an article from Spiked Magazine 12th May 2017.

'Yes, you can always tell when an election is upon us because it's time 'to save the NHS'. There are 14 days to save the NHS as Tony Blair said in April 1997 for example. Labour has been cynically wheeling out the line that the tories are going to privitise the NHS since the 1990s. They have vowed to 'save the NHS' since the 1980s. It's a dismal and pathetic strategy which only exposes the hollowness of a party that began to lose its heart and purpose in the 1960s, when the takeover of the working-class movement by the upper-middle class social liberals began in earnest. Shouty alarmism is all it's got left now.

Because, as you will have noticed, over the past 40 years the Conservatives have never privatised the NHS. Sure they have scaled back the number of free-upon-demand services and introduced the private sector into various areas. And some have talked of privatising it. But there's never been privatisation. And neither will the evil tories ever do so. It would be electoral suicide. Most conservative supporters are not free-market fundamentalists - they consider it 'our NHS' too.

Yet it is true that there is a body of free-market fundamentalists who would like to privitise the NHS, and it's the European Union - that body, which remember, dear Labour manifesto writers, still forbids the re-nationalisation of 'our railways' or our 'postal services', because that would break one of its iron principles: the free market'.

Very interesting article, which casts a dark shadow over Labour Party policies and its constant attempts to use the NHS as some sort of 'bargaining chip'. It is simply preying on the fears of the working-class on losing their much valued NHS. I personally found the above article informative and thought- provoking - thoughts please.

This article is so very true

You only have to compare nhs england with nhs wales
oh the welsh labour claim always theyre more caring they will save the nhs and stop it being privatised....yet all theyve ever done is waste, is to double / treble ceo wages and of treble the amount of burocrats and middle management which wastes the nhs billions

under the so called caring labour mrsa spread like wildfire, the abuses and cover ups were at record highs...the reporting system and the ombudsman was scaled back and those who dared criticize were bullied ...50% of doctors interviewed said they felt bullied and intimidated into not complaining during labours reign...debts rose and we saw the biggest abuses in nhs history with over 1000 dying of thirst and neglect in stafford hospital
sadly people dont bother protesting against labour sick hypocrisy, waste and cover ups because the tories and other party voters are not bullies like the labour unionists....though they did have 1 march against labours illegal iraq war which killed a milliion innocents and labour ignored that as they have zero respect for joe public

lets not forget too nhs england is run infinitely smarter than labours nhs wales which is way way behind on most measurements and most waiting lists....in some cases its several months behind...the poor people of wales have a second class system now. even a simple eye test takes 10 weeks for the results, in england in many hospitals its the same day. the complacent burocratic mess that is welsh nhs is frightening. the way welsh labour try to define almost every improvement in nhs england as privatising is totally dishonest and misleading. for example nhs england has a computer system that allows everyon in england to be on a national waiting lists, so they a londonder can be seen in liverpool straight away if theyre willing to travel. wales, a way smaller nation doesnt even have such a nationwide database so everyone is only on a local narrower waiting list...you can barely get a private operation or private treatment for many things in wales even if you have the policies. why? because welsh labour stop it....welsh labour intriduced the car parking fees too oh and lets not forget welsh labour created the junior doctors strike in the first place...how you say?

They signed the insane 2004 gp doctors contract which allowed 90% of all gp doctors to opt out from doing any more out of hours work (for a 6% pay cut at the time , though their wages soon ballooned under labour) so we lost 90% of our gp's out of hours and dentists thanks to labour. that put 90% ore pressure on hospital doctors? insane and people got sicker bed blocking got worse, debts rose. just insane

OH but its ok because labour SAY they are more caring, so that little bit of self praise they shower themselves with means we are supposed to ignore all the facts as labour always tend to do

neu bevan would be utterly ashamed of what labour has become and the lies and mismanagement and how they bankrupted the nation ruined the nhs and took us to illegal wars than killed a million innocents

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

How is it already done - evidence? Social Services and the NHS are still publically funded.

Luckily for us Brexit is our get out clause. I wouldn't trust the EU further than I could throw them.

Huge chunks, the most lucrative services were sold off, which is why the NHS went from being in the black to being in the red during the term of the last 2 parliaments.

As I stated Branson just snaffled adult social care in the midlands , a quick search will show you how deep the rot goes.

With the tories in charge brexit is a noose and nothing else.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Huge chunks, the most lucrative services were sold off, which is why the NHS went from being in the black to being in the red during the term of the last 2 parliaments.

As I stated Branson just snaffled adult social care in the midlands , a quick search will show you how deep the rot goes.

With the tories in charge brexit is a noose and nothing else.

Well as it seems obvious our NHS is doomed in or out, the NHS clearly has nothing to do with Brexit. As Corbyn would negotiate a Brexit that would cause us many other problems I would still still opt for the Tories.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Yeah.. that's what privatisation is, albeit by stealth.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/eu...-fact-checked/

Thanks for the recommendation to read this 'spiked' article, but as everyone knows not just lefties nobody told us a bigger lie than the £350 million a week one in the brexit campaign.

I do however agree with this ' the takeover of the working-class movement by the upper-middle class social liberals began in earnest.' Which is why I am still a labour supporter as I feel a Labour under Corbyn will pre date 'new Labour.' in it's appeal.

there were far more lies told by bremainers
osbournes claimed all sorts of nonsense including a massive rise in unemployment within a year and every household would lose £4300 per annum , this was double even the wprst case scenarios from the most respected think tanks
labours union leaders like frances ogrady claimed it would cost our public purses alone £10 billion a year minimum, thats hard to work out when our net contribution (all we put in which was £250 million a week less all we take out which is £90 million leaves us £160 million net losses per week = £8 billiona year thats equal to around half of the entire welsh governments budget)
alan johnson claimed 66% of all uk manufacturing jobs are directly reliant on eu demand. big fat lie, its nearer 15%

the figure of £350 million inc £258 million we send each week...it also includes the £33 billion in red tape which is the estimate of what eu red tape costs our businesses plus the rebate of £4.8 billion per annum which many bremainers wanted to hand back to brussels

[Kizzy]

The IFS has already stated catagorically brexit is already costing families over £1000 PA, and we're not out yet.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The IFS has already stated catagorically brexit is already costing families over £1000 PA, and we're not out yet.

Short-term pain, long-term gain.

Besides Corbyn's policies of long-term borrowing will have the same effect.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Short-term pain, long-term gain.

Besides Corbyn's policies of long-term borrowing will have the same effect.

And you know this how?

Your faith in this govt is at best misguided.

It was Hammond who committed to borrowing

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...et-good-money/

[Kazanne]

Are people just forgetting the 10/12 million Labour wasted on the NHS ? seems so.

[Kizzy]

sorry I must have missed that Kaz when was that, and what was it wasted on?