[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not that simple really, you can't just say that "not all abused kids go bad so theres no reason that any abused kid should go bad"... Psychology is nuanced and complex, and some people simply break.

That said; some broken people are dangerous and "unfixable", and that has to be accepted too. I fully believe that both of those boys are both criminals AND victims, and that tragically one / some of the people guilty for what happened - whoever is responsible for creating the monsters - will never feel the full force of the law for what happened.

In fact, most serial killers and some of the world's most dangerous people were once victims. But that doesn't mean it's safe, or a good idea, to let them back into society. I guess you can compare it to dogs? Pretty much all vicious dogs that attack and maul people have been physically abused extensively. But that doesn't mean it's a good idea to rehome them... They are always going to be a hair away from hurting someone else.

yes and like dogs these people should be exterminated immediately and without hand wringing. Dogs and humans are no different.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

yes and like dogs these people should be exterminated immediately and without hand wringing. Dogs and humans are no different.

I personally couldn't ever advocate the death sentence for a child under any circumstances, what sort of world would it be then? However, once they've reached adulthood if they are still clearly dangerous then I think they should at that point be treated as though the original crime was committed by an adult.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I personally couldn't ever advocate the death sentence for a child under any circumstances, what sort of world would it be then? However, once they've reached adulthood if they are still clearly dangerous then I think they should at that point be treated as though the original crime was committed by an adult.

i did not mean as a child I meant as an adult when he reoffended

[jet]

It's absolutely disgusting. No doubt they were spoilt rotten by the do - gooders and given lots of attention by those eager to 'fix' them. They were probably better treated than they would have been if they hadn't committed that horrendous crime and stayed at home and better treated than many children from dysfunctional families.
That dirty murderous bastard needs to stay locked up for ever now.

[Livia]

He should be locked up for the rest of his life. Sadly, there are people already worrying about his rehabilitation and his human rights. They'll make sure he's paroled as soon as possible... and so it goes on. Concerned people will want to find out what makes him tick and try to mend him. Personally I'd be happy to see him hang.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

He should be locked up for the rest of his life. Sadly, there are people already worrying about his rehabilitation and his human rights. They'll make sure he's paroled as soon as possible... and so it goes on. Concerned people will want to find out what makes him tick and try to mend him. Personally I'd be happy to see him hang.

I think it is quite important to figure out what "makes him tick" or what clear psychological problems or damage lead to these incidents - though not with the goal being to try to mend or rehabilitate him... I think it's pretty clear that it will never be safe to have him in society; if he's obtaining child porn then it's pretty clear that he still has no empathy in relation to what he did, and he is still getting thrills from kids suffering... Him reoffending and hurting someone is almost a certainty if he got the opportunity.

But it's still worth examining what "created him" in the first place, so that in future, carers / schools / social services etc. are better equipped to identify risk early and intervene long before something tragic happens.

I don't believe that anyone is "born evil" - there is some reason or set of circumstances that turned these kids into cruel murderers.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think it is quite important to figure out what "makes him tick" or what clear psychological problems or damage lead to these incidents - though not with the goal being to try to mend or rehabilitate him... I think it's pretty clear that it will never be safe to have him in society; if he's obtaining child porn then it's pretty clear that he still has no empathy in relation to what he did, and he is still getting thrills from kids suffering... Him reoffending and hurting someone is almost a certainty if he got the opportunity.

But it's still worth examining what "created him" in the first place, so that in future, carers / schools / social services etc. are better equipped to identify risk early and intervene long before something tragic happens.

I don't believe that anyone is "born evil" - there is some reason or set of circumstances that turned these kids into cruel murderers.

Yeah, I'll go with most of that. Find out what makes him tick, maybe it'll help people in the future. But never, ever let him out. I do disagree about people being born evil. I think some people are, not because they're bad for the sake of it, but because there're a couple of synapses that aren't firing in the same way everyone else's are.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yeah, I'll go with most of that. Find out what makes him tick, maybe it'll help people in the future. But never, ever let him out. I do disagree about people being born evil. I think some people are, not because they're bad for the sake of it, but because there're a couple of synapses that aren't firing in the same way everyone else's are.

There are definitely people who are born with a predisposition to sociopathy / psychopathy but that's not the same as "evil", and if it's caught early enough then those people are far less likely to ever be dangerous or hurt anyone. Just as with what Cherie was saying - not everyone who endures trauma becomes dangerous or a killer, in fact most people do not. The "perfect storm" comes when someone who is predisposed to those issues AND has it "activated" by circumstance... which is part of what makes it so important to identify early and intervene. I have absolutely no doubt that Venables was born with psychological differences to most people, but I also think it's likely that he may never have actually physically harmed anyone if he had been born under different circumstances.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think it is quite important to figure out what "makes him tick" or what clear psychological problems or damage lead to these incidents - though not with the goal being to try to mend or rehabilitate him... I think it's pretty clear that it will never be safe to have him in society; if he's obtaining child porn then it's pretty clear that he still has no empathy in relation to what he did, and he is still getting thrills from kids suffering... Him reoffending and hurting someone is almost a certainty if he got the opportunity.

But it's still worth examining what "created him" in the first place, so that in future, carers / schools / social services etc. are better equipped to identify risk early and intervene long before something tragic happens.

I don't believe that anyone is "born evil" - there is some reason or set of circumstances that turned these kids into cruel murderers.

I think it's quite clear that some people are born with needs, desires, flaws that the rest of us just don't have. Perhaps circumstances/being a victim themselves do trigger those inbuilt needs but clearly this person has a problem/need with regard to children that was there at a very young age and is still there. I don't think it is as easy as saying he was created by his life. All reports I've read is that this particular boy of the two came from a nice home. I think it's time for the authorities to accept he is a danger to children and can't be rehabilitated before he does it again.

[Tom4784]

It'll be a cycle that continues for the rest of his life, it would be good if they could issue him with a life sentence but changing the law for the sake of one case is never a good idea. The best we can hope for is that he doesn't end up hurting anyone else in the process.

Originally Posted by Livia

He should be locked up for the rest of his life. Sadly, there are people already worrying about his rehabilitation and his human rights. They'll make sure he's paroled as soon as possible... and so it goes on. Concerned people will want to find out what makes him tick and try to mend him. Personally I'd be happy to see him hang.

Human Rights should always be protected and they are an absolute, Human Rights for all citizens in the UK or none at all, it doesn't work when you pick or choose who gets them. If anyone is concerned about Human Rights issues in this casethen it's not out of concern for Venebles but more likely for the rights themselves. We live in an age where people often are quick to want to throw away their rights out of fear or a sense of malice which in itself is incredibly silly and an insult to the people who have died to preserve the rights we have.

Just reading about places where Human Rights are not in effect should make people more grateful for what we have and make them want to protect what we have.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It'll be a cycle that continues for the rest of his life, it would be good if they could issue him with a life sentence but changing the law for the sake of one case is never a good idea. The best we can hope for is that he doesn't end up hurting anyone else in the process.



Human Rights should always be protected and they are an absolute, Human Rights for all citizens in the UK or none at all, it doesn't work when you pick or choose who gets them. If anyone is concerned about Human Rights issues in this casethen it's not out of concern for Venebles but more likely for the rights themselves. We live in an age where people often are quick to want to throw away their rights out of fear or a sense of malice which in itself is incredibly silly and an insult to the people who have died to preserve the rights we have.

Just reading about places where Human Rights are not in effect should make people more grateful for what we have and make them want to protect what we have.

I understand the Human Rights Act.I also know that people who work in the legal area of the Human Rights Act in this country do it mostly for the money, not for altruistic reasons.

In my opinion, we shouldn't be worrying about the human rights of people who have acted inhumanely. There are plenty of people in the world who haven't murdered a child, for whom human rights is a happy dream. They're the ones I'd be more interested in protecting.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

I understand the Human Rights Act.I also know that people who work in the legal area of the Human Rights Act in this country do it mostly for the money, not for altruistic reasons.

In my opinion, we shouldn't be worrying about the human rights of people who have acted inhumanely. There are plenty of people in the world who haven't murdered a child, for whom human rights is a happy dream. They're the ones I'd be more interested in protecting.

Again, Human Rights have to apply to all Humans that live in areas where it's in effect otherwise it doesn't work. We can't pick and choose.