[user104658]

Originally Posted by jet

Yes, some cry racist at the slightest opportunity but when it comes to antisemitism they write the biggest load of crap trying to make excuses for it. It's been a real eye opener; odd how they only 'care' when it suits their own agenda's. Sickening.

Can you not simply flip that right on its head, though? People will say that things that question Muslim culture are "definitely not Islamophobia, its more complicated than that", yet in the very next breath declare that any word against Judaism (including Zionism) IS definitely anti-semitism and its not complicated at all.

So I agree - double standards all round, but we have to decide which it is at some point. Either general criticism of religious / ethnic / cultural elements is fair game, or it isn't.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Can you not simply flip that right on its head, though? People will say that things that question Muslim culture are "definitely not Islamophobia, its more complicated than that", yet in the very next breath declare that any word against Judaism (including Zionism) IS definitely anti-semitism and its not complicated at all.

So I agree - double standards all round, but we have to decide which it is at some point. Either general criticism of religious / ethnic / cultural elements is fair game, or it isn't.

Do you call the vile things posted by Corbyn's Labour pals about Jews just 'any word against Judaism?' - or Corbyn's support of the mural and his malaise in stamping out the antisemitism 'just any word' for that matter? Because its not 'just any word', is it, it's extreme and pervasive.
Flip it right on its head and think if May and the Tories had done/were doing the same against Muslims - would May supporters on this forum be bending over backwards to make excuses for her and her cronies like some Corbyn supporters here have done for their Idol? I don't think so! There would be uproar, and rightly so!
They cry RACIST and act like like sniffer dogs when any aspect, however slight, of any criticism of Islam is mentioned. But because it's Corbyn and his pals the excuses are wheeled out to excuse the antisemitism and its not poor Jeremy's fault anyway - its the big bad media out to destroy him. It's blatant hypocrisy and its pathetic - and very worrying.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by jet

Flip it right on its head and think if May and the Tories had done/were doing the same against Muslims - would May supporters on this forum be bending over backwards to make excuses for her and her cronies like some Corbyn supporters here have done for their Idol? I don't think so! There would be uproar, and rightly so!

With 100% certainty, yes, some people would be doing exactly that.



For what it's worth, boringly enough, I'm middle ground on this one. Yes the language used goes too far and veers into anti-semitism. But I also think there's (plenty of) scope for criticism of Israel and Zionism, that has nothing at all to do with most Jews, but is very firmly "taken off the table for discussion" as people are afraid of being branded anti-semites.

The same goes for Islam of course; there's plenty of scope for criticising aspects of Islam, not even just the extremism but some of the general cultural attitudes, and those are shot down unfairly. However - as with the above - it would also be false to say that those criticisms never veer into the territory of Islamophobia.

It SHOULD be the case, on all topics, that people can raise any points they want to so long as they don't start generalising too much and answer things thoughtfully and considerately... But I think the world (and this forum along with) is not really "in that place", at least not right now.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

With 100% certainty, yes, some people would be doing exactly that.



For what it's worth, boringly enough, I'm middle ground on this one. Yes the language used goes too far and veers into anti-semitism. But I also think there's (plenty of) scope for criticism of Israel and Zionism, that has nothing at all to do with most Jews, but is very firmly "taken off the table for discussion" as people are afraid of being branded anti-semites.

The same goes for Islam of course; there's plenty of scope for criticising aspects of Islam, not even just the extremism but some of the general cultural attitudes, and those are shot down unfairly. However - as with the above - it would also be false to say that those criticisms never veer into the territory of Islamophobia.

It SHOULD be the case, on all topics, that people can raise any points they want to so long as they don't start generalising too much and answer things thoughtfully and considerately... But I think the world (and this forum along with) is not really "in that place", at least not right now.

I honestly can't think of one person here who would go to the extremes of denial that some Corbyn supporters have. Does May have fanatical followers? People are deserting their principles to defend this man, no matter what he has done or is doing.
Israel and Zionism are not the topic of this thread and were used repeatedly to divert attention away from Labour and antisemitism. I suggested several times to Red who professed great interest in those subjects that he make a dedicated thread as I would like to learn more about them, but this was ignored.
I agree with your last paragraph.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jet

I honestly can't think of one person here who would go to the extremes of denial that some Corbyn supporters have. Does May have fanatical followers? People are deserting their principles to defend this man, no matter what he has done or is doing.
Israel and Zionism are not the topic of this thread and were used repeatedly to divert attention away from Labour and antisemitism. I suggested several times to Red who professed great interest in those subjects that he make a dedicated thread as I would like to learn more about them, but this was ignored.
I agree with your last paragraph.

Many Corbyn supporters had very high expectations of him and blindly believed all his empty promises. They will not accept that he isn’t the man they wanted him to be as they can’t face up to being exposed as such bad judges of character. It is easier to detract than face the truth. How long can they do that though!

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

With 100% certainty, yes, some people would be doing exactly that.

For what it's worth, boringly enough, I'm middle ground on this one. Yes the language used goes too far and veers into anti-semitism. But I also think there's (plenty of) scope for criticism of Israel and Zionism, that has nothing at all to do with most Jews, but is very firmly "taken off the table for discussion" as people are afraid of being branded anti-semites.

The same goes for Islam of course; there's plenty of scope for criticising aspects of Islam, not even just the extremism but some of the general cultural attitudes, and those are shot down unfairly. However - as with the above - it would also be false to say that those criticisms never veer into the territory of Islamophobia.

It SHOULD be the case, on all topics, that people can raise any points they want to so long as they don't start generalising too much and answer things thoughtfully and considerately... But I think the world (and this forum along with) is not really "in that place", at least not right now.

Anti-Semitism in the UK is far more WIDESPREAD than Islamaphobia and HAS been for many decades.

EVERY single day, incidents by antiSemitic bullies against innocent Jewish people go virtually unreported - or if reported go virtually unnoticed.

Whereas supporting Islam and railing loudly against Islamaphobics is fashionable and Politically Correct, anti-Semitism is not such a big deal to so-called liberals and progressives - which is WHY Corbyn and his Labour Party have been TEFLON-COATED for so extraordinary a long time given the facts of THEIR antiSemitism.

Here's a snippet about Anti-Semitism which WAS 'picked up' by some 'National Newspapers':
Student is suspended at £35,000-a-year boarding school for 'trying to force-feed Jewish schoolboy HAM pizza'

Clifton College student was suspended after he tried to feed a Jewish pupil ham.

The boy 'suffered psychologically' after the incident at the £35k-a-year school
The prestigious school in Bristol said anti-Semitism is 'abhorrent and 'pernicious'.

The Jewish teenager remained at the prestigious school alongside his alleged attacker, who was allowed back into classes after a short suspension.

Insiders said the suspended boy was on the periphery of another incident at the school a few years ago where a pupil - who was later expelled - wore a Nazi costume.

The Jewish student was at the prestigious Clifton College in Bristol (pictured) and was almost forced to eat a pizza with ham toppings

Religious community leaders and parents have voiced concerns about the incident, which happened in December.

The school has its own synagogue and had a schoolhouse dedicated to Jewish students until 2005.

A high profile member of Bristol's Jewish community, who wished to remain anonymous, said: 'I would like to express disappointment felt by the local Jewish community at the school's lack of response.

'It isn't the first case of anti-Semitism at Clifton College.

'The fact it happened in the first place is awful but the way in which Clifton College has brushed it under the carpet is much worse.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Can you not simply flip that right on its head, though? People will say that things that question Muslim culture are "definitely not Islamophobia, its more complicated than that", yet in the very next breath declare that any word against Judaism (including Zionism) IS definitely anti-semitism and its not complicated at all.

So I agree - double standards all round, but we have to decide which it is at some point. Either general criticism of religious / ethnic / cultural elements is fair game, or it isn't.

I suppose the main difference is that Islamic terrorists are waging war on the West, killing innocents, wanting to drag us all back to the dark ages. Check out all the top ten lists of most wanted terrorists and tell me what they all have in common. And we ALL understand that Muslims are generally peaceful... Islamists and Jihadists though, they're terrorists.

Jewish people haven't waged war on anyone, and yet here we are, in 2018, having to accept the usual sickening racism because we're only Jews.

Anti-Semitism is more and more accepted. And when supporters of a major political party ignore a protest by ordinary, moderate Jews, with no axe to grind, I shouldn't be surprised at all the comments on here in support of Corbyn and his party.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Livia

I suppose the main difference is that Islamic terrorists are waging war on the West, killing innocents, wanting to drag us all back to the dark ages. Check out all the top ten lists of most wanted terrorists and tell me what they all have in common. And we ALL understand that Muslims are generally peaceful... Islamists and Jihadists though, they're terrorists.

Jewish people haven't waged war on anyone, and yet here we are, in 2018, having to accept the usual sickening racism because we're only Jews.

Anti-Semitism is more and more accepted. And when supporters of a major political party ignore a protest by ordinary, moderate Jews, with no axe to grind, I shouldn't be surprised at all the comments on here in support of Corbyn and his party.

I agree with this! Jewish people aren’t running children down and planting bombs at pop concerts. No comparison.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

I suppose the main difference is that Islamic terrorists are waging war on the West, killing innocents, wanting to drag us all back to the dark ages. Check out all the top ten lists of most wanted terrorists and tell me what they all have in common. And we ALL understand that Muslims are generally peaceful... Islamists and Jihadists though, they're terrorists.

Jewish people haven't waged war on anyone, and yet here we are, in 2018, having to accept the usual sickening racism because we're only Jews.

Anti-Semitism is more and more accepted. And when supporters of a major political party ignore a protest by ordinary, moderate Jews, with no axe to grind, I shouldn't be surprised at all the comments on here in support of Corbyn and his party.

Aside from the whole antisemetism issue, (which again I agree requires addressing adequately) can I say this is odd .. as a westerner to hear this 'dark ages' thing, as I thought the whole Jerusalem issue was due to it once being a homeland literally in the dark ages?

It can't be disputed that in that place there is effectively a war going on, and it has a very distinct religious element to it.