[Vicky.]

My opinion has nothing to do with women, it has everything to do with trans people.

This is the problem. The ruling wasn't about trans people it was about women. Trans people have their own set of rights which have been upheld. If you look at this from purely a trans perspective then of course women upholding boundaries looks transphobic. If you consider women are also an oppressed group then you would see their side too.

I do see why trans people would see the ruling as transphobic however that's the fault of stonewall who spent years misrepresenting the law and telling women to S T F U terf. The law has always been the same. If I was trans I would be pretty pissed off too. But not at women.

[Vicky.]

I wouldn't like to speak for Vicky but I suppose her point was biological women are not a danger to men the same way biological men are to women so that's probably why it's not as big an issue the other way round.

that's exactly what I meant.

[Vicky.]

Loos aren't that important in the grand scheme of things. Prisons, refuges, sports, changing rooms etc. It's easy to dismiss concerns about loos. Which is probably why we keep going back to them..

[Cherie]

I mean look at this ridiculous decision by a judge back in 2019, the female was just dismissed

It is lawful for transgender women to be housed in female jails in England and Wales, the High Court has ruled.

A female prisoner, known as FDJ, had challenged the Ministry of Justice over aspects of the policy.

She claimed she had been sexually assaulted by a trans prisoner but the MoJ did not say whether it accepted this alleged incident had taken place.

The judge ruled barring all trans women from female prisons would ignore their right to live as their chosen gender.

Women's prisons can house inmates who were born male but identify as female, regardless of whether they have gone through any physical transformation or have obtained a gender recognition certificate.

The MoJ argued the policy pursued a legitimate aim, including "facilitating the rights of transgender people to live in and as their acquired gender (and) protecting transgender people's mental and physical health".

The claimant in the case, FDJ, had said she was sexually assaulted in prison in 2017 by a trans woman with a gender recognition certificate (GRC), who had convictions for serious sexual offences.

The claimant's lawyers argued that placing transgender women in the female prisons exposed others to higher risk, citing a claim that transgender inmates were five times more likely than non-transgender prisoners to commit a sexual assault on a non-transgender prisoner.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57692993


Mad eh, and they told us this would never happen it was all in our heads, its easy to see why this case had to be taken to the Supreme Court because women were just not being listened to

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I mean look at this ridiculous decision by a judge back in 2019, the female was just dismissed

It is lawful for transgender women to be housed in female jails in England and Wales, the High Court has ruled.

A female prisoner, known as FDJ, had challenged the Ministry of Justice over aspects of the policy.

She claimed she had been sexually assaulted by a trans prisoner but the MoJ did not say whether it accepted this alleged incident had taken place.

The judge ruled barring all trans women from female prisons would ignore their right to live as their chosen gender.

Women's prisons can house inmates who were born male but identify as female, regardless of whether they have gone through any physical transformation or have obtained a gender recognition certificate.

The MoJ argued the policy pursued a legitimate aim, including "facilitating the rights of transgender people to live in and as their acquired gender (and) protecting transgender people's mental and physical health".

The claimant in the case, FDJ, had said she was sexually assaulted in prison in 2017 by a trans woman with a gender recognition certificate (GRC), who had convictions for serious sexual offences.

The claimant's lawyers argued that placing transgender women in the female prisons exposed others to higher risk, citing a claim that transgender inmates were five times more likely than non-transgender prisoners to commit a sexual assault on a non-transgender prisoner.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57692993


Mad eh, and they told us this would never happen it was all in our heads, its easy to see why this case had to be taken to the Supreme Court because women were just not being listened to

Women aren't real people. They are only there to keep males safe and comfortable.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Women aren't real people. They are only there to keep males safe and comfortable.

Insane right, previously convicted of sexual assault, placed in a womens prison, yet the woman is told she is lying and we can't upset this transwoman and 'her' and I use her very loosely rights must be upheld for 'her' physical and mental well being, farcical, and we had all the high profile politicans yes looking at you Nicola nodding along and gas lighting us that this was the correct way to proceed

@BBXX what is your summation of this situation?

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Insane right, previously convicted of sexual assault, placed in a womens prison, yet the woman is told she is lying and we can't upset this transwoman and 'her' and I use her very loosely rights must be upheld for 'her' physical and mental well being, farcical, and we had all the high profile politicans yes looking at you Nicola nodding along and gas lighting us that this was the correct way to proceed

@BBXX what is your summation of this situation?

Look, that's obviously awful for the female officer and the process for investigation should be the same for whomever was the perpetrator and the punishment the same, but sorry I don't see why a trans woman should be put anywhere other than a women's prison... If a cis man was guilty of raping various men, he would still be put in a male prison, he wouldn't be put in a female prison to minimise risk of him assaulting other inmates.

But I have to ask, why are you linking the crime with their trans-ness? Why isn't it just the case they commit such a horrible crime because they were a criminal? Why are you linking it with their identity? Can't trans women be criminals just because, just like the cis women?

This always happens with minorities - a minority commits a crime and it's used as an illustration in an argument to try and justify something. Bad people are bad people.

What if it was a lesbian cis woman who sexually assaulted the prison officer? Would you ask for all lesbians to be put into another prison?

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Women aren't real people. They are only there to keep males safe and comfortable.

Weird, I thought our role was the latter...

[BBXX]

Apologies I misread female prisoner with female prison officer.

[Vicky.]

sorry I don't see why a trans woman should be put anywhere other than a women's prison.

at which stage of transition? Full transition, self ID, other?

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

at which stage of transition? Full transition, self ID, other?

I don't know if there is an easy, cut and dry answer to this - I can totally understand if someone who has been living as a man, commits a crime and then states they identify as a woman shouldn't be placed in a women's prison, and I don't deny that Self-ID creates a myriad of issues but I also think we need to be careful not to make the lives of legitimate trans people even more difficult than they already are because of a few non-trans people who take advantage of a loophole.

In my opinion, someone who has been living as a woman for a long time and is yet to have surgery, for example, should still be placed in a woman's prison.

The prison system is a difficult one, and I think (there might be?) different wings for different crimes - sexual assault for example, should be separated from those who are in there for things like fraud and petty crime and that goes for men and women prisons. If a cis man or a cis woman has sexually assaulted someone of the same gender as them, they would still be put in the prison of the gender they identify as, housed alongside the same gender as the victim of their crime.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I don't know if there is an easy, cut and dry answer to this - I can totally understand if someone who has been living as a man, commits a crime and then states they identify as a woman shouldn't be placed in a women's prison, and I don't deny that Self-ID creates a myriad of issues but I also think we need to be careful not to make the lives of legitimate trans people even more difficult than they already are because of a few non-trans people who take advantage of a loophole.

In my opinion, someone who has been living as a woman for a long time and is yet to have surgery, for example, should still be placed in a woman's prison.

The prison system is a difficult one, and I think (there might be?) different wings for different crimes - sexual assault for example, should be separated from those who are in there for things like fraud and petty crime and that goes for men and women prisons. If a cis man or a cis woman has sexually assaulted someone of the same gender as them, they would still be put in the prison of the gender they identify as, housed alongside the same gender as the victim of their crime.

Do you also think transmen should go to male prisons?

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Do you also think transmen should go to male prisons?

Yes. My viewpoint is the same for Trans men and trans women across the board.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Yes. My viewpoint is the same for Trans men and trans women across the board.

Fair enough. I would think transmen would be at HUGE risk in a male prison.

[Vicky.]

there’s nothing in that judgment that says that you can’t have gender neutral loos”

No there isn't, this can be done. What can't be done is it being labelled for women while being mixed sex. Places can chose to have 'gender neutral' if they like

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

No there isn't, this can be done. What can't be done is it being labelled for women while being mixed sex. Places can chose to have 'gender neutral' if they like

The fixation on toilets is pretty ridiculous and designed to demean

Its all about bathrooms they cry when it really isn't

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The fixation on toilets is pretty ridiculous and designed to demean

Its all about bathrooms they cry when it really isn't

To be fair, if one concedes on bathroom spaces, they pretty much have to concede on most—if not all—others... because it's the most private area where most of us are going to share a space as the same sex. Locker rooms I would put into the same category of arguments.

It would introduce a lot of awkwardness when it comes to areas of social life where maybe an organization or institutions would like to allow transwomen... for example, girls camp... little known fact, but in some areas schools send their kids off for about a week in 5th grade... but imagine they can't share bedroom/bathroom spaces where almost all the female social skills and experiences really solidify at that age. Maybe they can't due to the potential of violating the larger law. I can see where there is less room for compromise without a clearer picture of where integration is encouraged and where lines are best drawn...

So I think legislation could and should strive to go further to outline exactly how we intend to integrate trans-folk into an increasingly complex society instead of walking around it and allowing for this weird unhappy middle where no one has any really clue where it falls... that will cause a lot of problems down the line and it's causing problems now, imo.

[Vicky.]

I agree, making it all about toilets is ridiculous

[BBXX]

It’s probably because it will affect them most frequently. Not many people are joining professional sports teams or seeking help refuge. Public loos are used often by almost everyone.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by BBXX

It’s probably because it will affect them most frequently. Not many people are joining professional sports teams or seeking help refuge. Public loos are used often by almost everyone.

There was a lot of sports objections

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by BBXX

It’s probably because it will affect them most frequently. Not many people are joining professional sports teams or seeking help refuge. Public loos are used often by almost everyone.

Alot of transwomen have already said they will ignore the new law and continue to use the ladies....its not the big deal that is being made out, employment, changing rooms, sports, refuges, swimming pools....no mention

[arista]

Speaking On BBCnewsHD to Laura
says she will not return to the UK.


As it's not safe if she has to go into a men's loo.

She fears someone will Die


A Former Judge. (Dr. Victoria McCloud)

A Special One-On-One Newscast

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9qw2149yelo

[Zizu]

Yawn


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kate!]

Dear God!

[arista]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...0f2ky/newscast

Not Yet on Video

It is in on Audio Only.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0lh0c9r