[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Yup and the implication that people believed every word of the campaign.

My mind was made up years before the referendum, I knew how I would vote if there ever was one, for many reasons, but not least because we were dragged through major changes to what the EU was without being consulted for 40 years. That is unacceptable to me. Ironically because politicians calling all the shots and taking us into a political experiment without the people's consent was unacceptable. And yet here we have those who feel they know it all on forum telling me I voted the way I did because I believed every word of the campaign. I'm not the one telling others how they think and I'm being called ignorant.

This is the problem, you believe that everyone who voted leave thinks exactly the same as you and just so happens to be informed on all the issues. You might be informed but the majority of all voters are not and to act like they are is to live in denial.

You just want an excuse to be offended at what someone you dislike has said although common sense and basic reading skills would dictate that what I said doesn't apply to anyone informed of the issues surrounding the vote.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It's worrying how some simply cannot see that insulting thousands of voters for having a different opinion to theirs is the real problem here. Some speak of not being allowed an opinion when they repeatedly call thousands of others 'ignorant *****s' for just that - having an opinion. Then having the Gaul to say they haven't called anyone names or questioned their intelligence - definitely not on the same page as the rest of us. Practising what they preach would be a good lesson learned I think.

Coming from you? How often are you insulting people who believe in PC or the left in general? Get off that high horse before it collapses under the weight of your hypocrisy. Also good for you for trying to be PC

I've never denied the masses their opinions, I've simply commented on them. You and others, however, do constantly try to shut down opinions you don't like be pretending to be offended and making out that anything you dislike is a rule break.

I haven't called any member names or questioned their intelligence. Again, like Jaxie, you are trying to invalidate my opinion by making out that I'm insulting members when I've not simply because you can't handle opinions you disagree with.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Coming from you? How often are you insulting people who believe in PC or the left in general? Get off that high horse before it collapses under the weight of your hypocrisy. Also good for you for trying to be PC

I've never denied the masses their opinions, I've simply commented on them. You and others, however, do constantly try to shut down opinions you don't like be pretending to be offended and making out that anything you dislike is a rule break.

I haven't called any member names or questioned their intelligence. Again, like Jaxie, you are trying to invalidate my opinion by making out that I'm insulting members when I've not simply because you can't handle opinions you disagree with.

It isn't me that can't handle opposing opinions. No matter what you say people will form their own opinions regardless of yours.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Coming from you? How often are you insulting people who believe in PC or the left in general? Get off that high horse before it collapses under the weight of your hypocrisy. Also good for you for trying to be PC

I've never denied the masses their opinions, I've simply commented on them. You and others, however, do constantly try to shut down opinions you don't like be pretending to be offended and making out that anything you dislike is a rule break.

I haven't called any member names or questioned their intelligence. Again, like Jaxie, you are trying to invalidate my opinion by making out that I'm insulting members when I've not simply because you can't handle opinions you disagree with.

But you're the one getting all ancie when people comment on your opinions if you don't like the comments - accusing people of having it in for you because they don't like you or of trying to undermine you. Waste of time. You only hear what you want to hear. Your mindset is set in stone just as you accuse others of.

[JTM45]

Well said Dezzy.

The leavers just stick their fingers in their ears whenever the undeniability of the fact that people voted for lies and on false facts rears its head.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by JTM45

Well said Dezzy.

The leavers just stick their fingers in their ears whenever the undeniability of the fact that people voted for lies and on false facts rears its head.

What would you call more "undeniable" : a study by Oxford and LSE, or some rando on a forum saying "there ARE sources out there, I SWEAR!!"

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by JTM45

Well said Dezzy.

The leavers just stick their fingers in their ears whenever the undeniability of the fact that people voted for lies and on false facts rears its head.

Unlike of course the fact most of those that constantly talk of lies and false facts when it comes to Brexit then bought into Corbyn's lies on clearing all student debt and his empty promises of throwing masses of tax payers money at this that and the other when several experts have stated such claims are unaffordable and this country would end up with a Hugh deficit that would have a negative effect on the economy leading to untold problems. Pot and kettle.

Corbyn is just another Labour politician promising the earth to win an election. You would think people would get that by now. You can stick your fingers in your ears once again.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Unlike of course the fact most of those that constantly talk of lies and false facts when it comes to Brexit then bought into Corbyn's lies on clearing all student debt and his empty promises of throwing masses of tax payers money at this that and the other when several experts have stated such claims are unaffordable and this country would end up with a Hugh deficit that would have a negative effect on the economy leading to untold problems. Pot and kettle.

Corbyn is just another Labour politician promising the earth to win an election. You would think people would get that by now. You can stick your fingers in your ears once again.

You do realize that spending comes before tax and the only thing tax is used for is paying off interest on government debt? We don't have a special pot for consumer spending or salary contributions!! QE works, providing the money is invested and guarantees a return (in tax). Therefore, investing in education is a very secure spend because the more educated professionals we have, the more they earn and the more they earn, the more they spend. That's a double whammy on tax return.

To suggest we will be paying, through our taxes, to educate students just shows a lack of understanding around how tax and deficits work. If we didn't have a deficit, the money machine would come to a grinding halt.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

You do realize that spending comes before tax and the only thing tax is used for is paying off interest on government debt? We don't have a special pot for consumer spending or salary contributions!! QE works, providing the money is invested and guarantees a return (in tax). Therefore, investing in education is a very secure spend because the more educated professionals we have, the more they earn and the more they earn, the more they spend. That's a double whammy on tax return.

To suggest we will be paying, through our taxes, to educate students just shows a lack of understanding around how tax and deficits work. If we didn't have a deficit, the money machine would come to a grinding halt.

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/exp...debt-manifesto

So you say, but information you have presented before has been questioned.

Like most things the size of the national deficit is relevant. Very high Government debt can slow down the economy and increase taxation to pay for it. According to the latest Article IV report on the UK economy the IMF said that maintaining deficits and debts at high levels would also constrain the space to respond proactively to future large negative growth shocks.

It is clearly not in our interests to have a very high national deficit which is what we would have to finance Corbyns' grand plans. Talk is cheap, action isn't.

Personally I do not support a policy that expects those earning less to pay for a higher level of education that will likely provide much higher earnings for the beneficiaries. In principle it is wrong. If you want to benefit from higher education and the benefits it brings you have to expect to contribute.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Like most things the size of the national deficit is relevant. Very high Government debt can slow down the economy and increase taxation to pay for it. According to the latest Article IV report on the UK economy the IMF said that maintaining deficits and debts at high levels would also constrain the space to respond proactively to future large negative growth shocks.

Ok but do you understand the reason for the part in bold? Basically the reason for reducing debt when "times are good" is so that you can SPEND SPEND SPEND when things get bad, because investment is the only way to effectively pull out of an economic downturn. When they talk about having room to reapond; this is what they mean. Having room to BORROW and SPEND more when the economy is suffering.

Now... Both Labour and the Tories unfortunately got this arse-backwards in each of their terms. Labour were in power during major boom years when we were thriving, but failed to address debt issues when we were in the position to do so. On the flipside... The Tories CUT spending and tightened the belts at a time when the economy was in trouble... The absolute opposite of the right thing to do. Creative spending on jobs and keeping the country flowing, and keeping money IN the pockets of consumers rather than removing it through austerity, is the way to bring us back to a thriving economy and THEN tackle the debt.

And they're still doing it. Despite what some would have us believe, the economy is far from recovered, let alone thriving, and this Tory obsession with austerity and cuts is only going to slow the economy down further and make things worse. It needs a turbo boost... Not someone hitting the brakes.

Its not really comparable to personal debt but a comparison can be drawn;

Let's say someone is in Ł40,000 of debt and they earn Ł25,000 a year. An expensive, but promising, opportunity comes up and they now have two options:

1) They could stay in their 25k job and put every spare penny they have onto debts every month. If they do this, they reckon they can pay it all off in 15 years of frugal living.

2) They can borrow another 10k and go on a 3 year course that will bag them a job earning Ł50k a year. During the course they can only afford to repay the interest, so at the end of that, they will be in more debt, but earning more money, and have the now-50k debt paid off in another 9 years.

So in option 1 it takes 15 years to pay the debt and still be in the same dead end job at the end of it.

Option 2, initially the debt rises but in the end it only takes 12 years total to pay the debt, even through the debt was higher and started repaying later, and the person is also in a much better position at the end of it.


The theory is the same. Spend money to make the economy truly strong and then repaying the debt won't be the same mountain that it is with our struggling economy in a time of uncertainty.

[JTM45]

In the context i used the term the fact that Farage admitted less than 24 hours after the vote that the ''Ł350 million a week will go straight back into the NHS when we leave the EU'' was incorrect and undeniable.

Please don't call me names ''Oliver''.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by JTM45

In the context i used the term the fact that Farage admitted less than 24 hours after the vote that the ''Ł350 million a week will go straight back into the NHS when we leave the EU'' was incorrect and undeniable.

Please don't call me names ''Oliver''.

Farage was never in a position to make that promise, he has and had virtually no political power. "Rando" isn't an insult, sorry if you took it that way, it's just short for "random person." And who cares about Farage, what's he got to do with the price of fish?

[Livia]

I see "leavers" are still regarded is "stupid and ignorant" by the high-flying, deep thinking academics here who voted "stay".

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

I see "leavers" are still regarded is "stupid and ignorant" by the high-flying, deep thinking academics here who voted "stay".

Not all leavers, just the majority that voted because they believed that a Bus that told them the NHS would get millions more in funding or because a bunch of politicians selling snake oil told them what they wanted to hear or simply because they voted to leave because that's what other people they know did.

If you vote in an election or a referendum without truly understanding the issue then you are voting in ignorance and the majority of all voters are largely ignorant.

Of course that distinction doesn't matter, any reason to act offended, huh?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Livia

I see "leavers" are still regarded is "stupid and ignorant" by the high-flying, deep thinking academics here who voted "stay".

You said it much more eloquently than I did.

[Kizzy]

Why is LSE giving promos to buzzfeed not the financial times or another broadsheet?

Curiouser and curiouser... :/

[JTM45]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Why is LSE giving promos to buzzfeed not the financial times or another broadsheet?

Curiouser and curiouser... :/

The whole 'study' seems to just confirm that most people are still very confused about the facts and unaware of the real implications of Brexit.

There was only 3000 people involved in this too which really isn't enough to come to any clear conclusion, especially when we don't know who the people were and how they came to take part in this.

The fact that leavers are so terrified of any possibility of another referendum says a lot about how the first result was obtained. They just use the old ''not respecting democracy blah'' line when, if they were really interested in real democracy then they'd welcome avote now that people are at least slightly more aware of the facts, or at least those whopping lies used to convince many of the need to leave the EU have been well and truly debunked.

We can also back out of Brexit at any point before it's been completed, which will be years.............if it even happens at all.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by JTM45

The whole 'study' seems to just confirm that most people are still very confused about the facts and unaware of the real implications of Brexit.

There was only 3000 people involved in this too which really isn't enough to come to any clear conclusion, especially when we don't know who the people were and how they came to take part in this.

The fact that leavers are so terrified of any possibility of another referendum says a lot about how the first result was obtained. They just use the old ''not respecting democracy blah'' line when, if they were really interested in real democracy then they'd welcome avote now that people are at least slightly more aware of the facts, or at least those whopping lies used to convince many of the need to leave the EU have been well and truly debunked.

We can also back out of Brexit at any point before it's been completed, which will be years.............if it even happens at all.

Your respect for democracy, or rather lack of it when it suits, is clear, although no doubt if the referendum had gone your way and the leavers were wanting a second referendum it would be a different story.

Maybe from now on we should all call for a second vote every time we elect a new priminister if we don't like the result. Or maybe a third would be fairer - best of three and all that. Why stop there - we could just keep demanding repeat votes to kingdom come until we get our own way, but then the other side would demand another ...

You are living in cloud cuckoo land - it won't happen. There would be a public uproar not to mention the future implications for public votes. We were informed - if you and whoever else didn't bother to listen - lesson learned which is clearly a bitter pill to swallow.

Speaking of buying into lies - the subject of clearing student debt comes to mind - you know those ones that did get all those youngsters, who didn't bother to vote in the referendum, to finally listen. Too little too late.

[JTM45]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Your respect for democracy, or rather lack of it when it suits, is clear, although no doubt if the referendum had gone your way and the leavers were wanting a second referendum it would be a different story.

You're just making it up as you go along!

This is SUCH an important subject where people were at best poorly informed and, at worst, repeatedly lied to on key issues that helped them decide how they were going to vote.

Once this has happened there'll be no going back on it so, in the true spirit of democracy, why would you have a problem with a better informed UK population making sure they are doing the right thing before taking such a MASSIVE step that, if it doesn't go well, could destroy our economy completely ? Why wouldn't you want to be sure and give people the chance, now that they know that some major selling points used by the leave side were nothing more than lies made up to make their case look stronger ? Denying people that opportunity would be completely un-democratic. Or would you rather go with a result that could have come about through dishonest means just because those lies got you the result you wanted ?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by JTM45

You're just making it up as you go along!

This is SUCH an important subject where people were at best poorly informed and, at worst, repeatedly lied to on key issues that helped them decide how they were going to vote.

Once this has happened there'll be no going back on it so, in the true spirit of democracy, why would you have a problem with a better informed UK population making sure they are doing the right thing before taking such a MASSIVE step that, if it doesn't go well, could destroy our economy completely ? Why wouldn't you want to be sure and give people the chance, now that they know that some major selling points used by the leave side were nothing more than lies made up to make their case look stronger ? Denying people that opportunity would be completely un-democratic. Or would you rather go with a result that could have come about through dishonest means just because those lies got you the result you wanted ?

The true spirit of democracy has already occurred. You can try to manipulate the word all you like - changes nothing, and will change nothing. Very weak attempt at emotional blackmail, but the level of. desperation is painfully clear.

Those 'lies' had nothing to do with my vote. Most probably made up their minds long before. You are making a lot of assumptions out of desperation.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Your respect for democracy, or rather lack of it when it suits, is clear, although no doubt if the referendum had gone your way and the leavers were wanting a second referendum it would be a different story.

Maybe from now on we should all call for a second vote every time we elect a new priminister if we don't like the result. Or maybe a third would be fairer - best of three and all that. Why stop there - we could just keep demanding repeat votes to kingdom come until we get our own way, but then the other side would demand another ...

You are living in cloud cuckoo land - it won't happen. There would be a public uproar not to mention the future implications for public votes. We were informed - if you and whoever else didn't bother to listen - lesson learned which is clearly a bitter pill to swallow.

Speaking of buying into lies - the subject of clearing student debt comes to mind - you know those ones that did get all those youngsters, who didn't bother to vote in the referendum, to finally listen. Too little too late.

Ah the ol' 'if you don't think the way I do, you don't respect democracy' bit.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Ah the ol' 'if you don't think the way I do, you don't respect democracy' bit.

Tell that to the person who I responded to who tried accusing me of that.

Of course you won't as you only target those whose views you disagree with despite others making the same comments.

[jennyjuniper]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/r...jX4#.txJrdw3Mb

This seemed obvious for a while now despite attempts by some to suggest otherwise. People respecting a public vote despite not entirely agreeing with leaving the EU is admirable and what democracy is all about. ance2:

Welcome back Brillopad. I've missed you.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jennyjuniper

Welcome back Brillopad. I've missed you.

Thank you Jenny!

[JTM45]

Like talking to a brick wall..............that's about to fall down.