[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..that’s the thing though, Marsh...(..obviously it can’t be completely generalised because some Aspergers do have excellent debating skills..)...but ‘debating skills’ is not something generally associated with Aspergers...so yeah, those skills were not shown in a good light...because for her it would be more..a quick, sharp, ‘truth’.../type response and thought...the ‘strength’ that’s more ‘typical’ and would be shown in The Chase as a chaser, something she excels at I believe...a little cynic in me feels, well they would know that in having her as a guest on a debate show...and maybe hoping for a ‘controversial’ remark...and hey, we’re back in the news, guys...Anne did that, that’s what we hoped for...she didn’t let us down...Oooops...

Absolutely.

The Wright Stuff is horrible in that sense. Like last week when they were goading Iain Lee about his personal life after he specifically asked them beforehand he wasn't there to talk about it. The media can be a vile cesspit.

[Vicky.]

It was rude and pretty unnecessary.

But Ann is Autistic, and as such is likely to have issues understanding the way we are supposed to effectively LIE when it comes to transpeople

And Paris did grown up as a boy.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

It was rude and pretty unnecessary.

But Ann is Autistic, and as such is likely to have issues understanding the way we are supposed to effectively LIE when it comes to transpeople

And Paris did grown up as a boy.

Having autism could lead her to be blunt about it in an outright factual way; e.g. Let's say the conversation was about... The hazards of using a urinal, or catching your willy in your fly zip, an autistic person might say "Oh but you'll understand because you used to be male and had a penis" without thinking or realising that that might "cause offence". That's one thing.

Suggesting that someone should "know all about the old boy's club" because they "used to be a boy" is nothing more than a deliberate jibe

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Having autism could lead her to be blunt about it in an outright factual way; e.g. Let's say the conversation was about... The hazards of using a urinal, or catching your willy in your fly zip, an autistic person might say "Oh but you'll understand because you used to be male and had a penis" without thinking or realising that that might "cause offence". That's one thing.

Suggesting that someone should "know all about the old boy's club" because they "used to be a boy" is nothing more than a deliberate jibe

Oh I get the 'you would know about old boys club as you are male' is pretty nonsensical.

But this she is transphobic as she acknowledges that Paris is male rather than politely lying about it and pretending that transwomen were always girls and such as we are apparently supposed to do...well thats likely to be Aspergers

Was an attempt at a snide comment. Which tbf, is pretty much what shes known for. So the reaction and demanding she is sacked and such is pretty stupid

I reckon if she had been talking to a normal bloke who had said the same stuff, she would have said 'oh well you are male, you would know' or whatever. Kind of glad she did not actually say this to paris, as even though paris is male, it would have caused MUCH more hell on than 'you used to be male'

[arista]

"Anne shot back: "Well, you used to be a boy, you would know."

Her comment was followed by a frosty silence in the studio, as the debate swiftly moved on."


Yes it was a nasty response
I thought Matt Wright
would say something.


Anne Hegerty
has autism etc.
It was a feature on another day when she was on.


Today's show at 10:24AM
Guest Presenter Ann Diamond
pointed out the comment
and said Sorry.

[Kizzy]

I say that was fair comment.

[LaLaLand]

Anne is savage!!

[Ammi]

...there are varying degrees of Aspergers...so it’s hard to say if it was meant ‘to close down’...or just her ‘logical’ thought pattern of...well you have spent time as a ‘boy’, so you would know ‘boy’s clubs’ etc...Aspergers don’t have thoughts of, oh that was offensive or hurtful or anything...the syndrome doesn’t ‘sense’ feelings or diplomacy in the same way as others who aren’t Aspergers...in childhood though, or through childhood when diagnosed...many ‘skills’ are learned...which enable things like that to be said less in adulthood...but then, that would also depend on when in her life she was diagnosed and how much help she got with those ‘skills’...because that’s more a fairly recent thing, so maybe not so much of ‘her time’...so yeah, it’s hard to say, even in watching it...oooops though...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Jonnii

Anne is savage!!

...yeah she is, Jonnie....I have to say I haven’t watched The Chase that much...but just looking at the vid just now, I watched her Chase with Ann Widdecombe....a small clip....and she’s definately a ‘match’ for Anne......

[Withano]

***** thing to say, but I doubt she meant it to be that way. Just a woman knowing that shes losing a debate so resulted to desperate petty playground tactics. See it happen a lot here.

[jaxie]

People with autism of which asbergers is a condition are different, and there are wildly varying levels of different from not being able to communicate at all to very intelligent communicative skills. They can be cherubs or quite physically violent. However some things are a bit of a trend of the condition, they see the world differently, can be socially and emotionally awkward and don't have the same filters as other people. I spent a few years working with autistic children and what Anne said was pretty typical asbergers in my view. Just a blunt statement of the obvious.

It isn't transphobic to state the obvious and anyone offended by that really needs to grow a thicker skin.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by jaxie

People with autism of which asbergers is a condition are different, and there are wildly varying levels of different from not being able to communicate at all to very intelligent communicative skills. They can be cherubs or quite physically violent. However some things are a bit of a trend of the condition, they see the world differently, can be socially and emotionally awkward and don't have the same filters as other people. I spent a few years working with autistic children and what Anne said was pretty typical asbergers in my view. Just a blunt statement of the obvious.

It isn't transphobic to state the obvious and anyone offended by that really needs to grow a thicker skin.

I agree she probably wasn't meaning to be transphobic, when I first watched it I didn't know she has aspergers so I thought she was just being cruel, but watching it knowing I doubt that was the case. But regarding the bit in bold I think it's also understandable that trans people might be offended. They can't control their gender dysphoria much like Anne can't control her aspergers and comments like that would most likely trigger it so I don't think it's really a case of them just needing a thicker skin to be fair.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I agree she probably wasn't meaning to be transphobic, when I first watched it I didn't know she has aspergers so I thought she was just being cruel, but watching it knowing I doubt that was the case. But regarding the bit in bold I think it's also understandable that trans people might be offended. They can't control their gender dysphoria much like Anne can't control her aspergers and comments like that would most likely trigger it so I don't think it's really a case of them just needing a thicker skin to be fair.

I think it has a lot to do with growing a thicker skin tbh. Just like you say they can't control their condition, they also cannot control others perceptions of them which stands just as much for someone on the autism spectrum as for someone who wants to be a different sex. Other people will not understand, will find it weird, in both cases and unless they accept that they will find a great deal of unhappiness. You cannot force people to see you how you want to be seen so you have to accept that is life and get on with it without butthurt drams every time someone says something unpleasant to you.

I have a friend who has a weight problem and she has been the victim of nasty remarks in public many times. A lot nastier than someone noting you used to be a boy. She can't control other people either. So she's had to grow a thicker skin too.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I think it has a lot to do with growing a thicker skin tbh. Just like you say they can't control their condition, they also cannot control others perceptions of them which stands just as much for someone on the autism spectrum as for someone who wants to be a different sex. Other people will not understand, will find it weird, in both cases and unless they accept that they will find a great deal of unhappiness. You cannot force people to see you how you want to be seen so you have to accept that is life and get on with it without butthurt drams every time someone says something unpleasant to you.

I have a friend who has a weight problem and she has been the victim of nasty remarks in public many times. A lot nastier than someone noting you used to be a boy. She can't control other people either. So she's had to grow a thicker skin too.

I don't doubt they'd be a lot happier if they didn't suffer from it but I'm just saying that having a mental disorder like gender dysphoria isn't their fault and if it is triggered I don't think they can really be blamed for that .We don't tell people with depression to 'just cheer up' much in the same way as a person can't really be told not to feel dysphoric, it sets it apart from everyday comments/criticisms we all get that might offend us for whatever reason where toughening up could be beneficial. Or like your friend for example with the weight problems, I don't know if she suffers from an eating disorder but people who do would be far less able to cope well with comments about their weight because that inability to cope is directly linked to a mental disorder, compared to somebody who has weight problems but no associated mental condition.

[DemolitionRed]

We don't get to decide what should or shouldn't affect another person. I've never been able to work out what a "thicker skin" even means! Does it mean we can't be offended or hurt anymore? That our world will turn to a much happier place because we won't be exposed or put on the spot? Does it mean we are not allowed to care? Is being sensitive the opposite of being strong?

[Maru]

I don't understand why this is news. (Not panning you Nom, just why these always circulate in the media) The comment was obviously meant to be cutting... but I don't see why then magnify it beyond the level of what it actually warrants? I don't think society is that fragile? Whether she meant it in truth or out of medical, would feel irrelevant to me and somewhat inappropriate to the target of the comment... because it wouldn't invalidate the problematic nature of that commentary and obviously her hurt feelings if any existed...

She didn't respond, so apparently she didn't think it worth that much to make a big scene over it... I think more power to her for rising above it. But why the media needs to amplify every small case of stupiditis, I will never get... it feels like we're rewarding it by putting a bright yellow sticker next to it and giving it a national platform. Must have been a boring episode if this was the only thing worth commenting on...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Maru

I don't understand why this is news. (Not panning you Nom, just why these always circulate in the media) The comment was obviously meant to be cutting... but I don't see why then magnify it beyond the level of what it actually warrants? I don't think society is that fragile? Whether she meant it in truth or out of medical, would feel irrelevant to me and somewhat inappropriate to the target of the comment... because it wouldn't invalidate the problematic nature of that commentary and obviously her hurt feelings if any existed...

She didn't respond, so apparently she didn't think it worth that much to make a big scene over it... I think more power to her for rising above it. But why the media needs to amplify every small case of stupiditis, I will never get... it feels like we're rewarding it by putting a bright yellow sticker next to it and giving it a national platform. Must have been a boring episode if this was the only thing worth commenting on...

"Because it sells". The answer to why the media does anything.

"Outrage and indignation" is big business.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

"Because it sells". The answer to why the media does anything.

"Outrage and indignation" is big business.

Oh yes and the fast food and carbonated beverage industry are big business... all terrible things for our well-being, but very addicting. We don't know even notice what we are doing it to ourselves...

[bots]

Its fine for an individual to be offended by someone or something, and everyone's threshold for taking offence is different, so no problem there. The problem I have is with people taking offence on others behalf when its just not necessary. If i was down the pub or at the cinema and I got offended about something, i wouldn't go round everyone there asking for their support and for them to be offended too. It makes no sense. So why does it become acceptable online or in the media? It's just plain daft.

[y.winter]

I wouldn't say transphobic as there was nothing "phobic" against trans.
While it wasn't the best of statements from Anne (and I don't know much about her) - She did use to be a boy (not an opinion), for the sake of the argument she was "on the other side" like women might base their argument on being on the discriminated side.
Was it necessary or meant to support a serious debate about these things? there wasn't much of a thought behind it. People say stuff...
If it's a discussion about gender issues - Anne brings the fact of being herself a woman, like Paris bringing the fact that she's a transwoman to the table (and it's something that India has discussed on CBB21 - changing sides from the "oppressive" gender to the "oppressed" gender, which is a valid point).

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by y.winter

I wouldn't say transphobic as there was nothing "phobic" against trans.
While it wasn't the best of statements from Anne (and I don't know much about her) - She did use to be a boy (not an opinion), for the sake of the argument she was "on the other side" like women might base their argument on being on the discriminated side.
Was it necessary or meant to support a serious debate about these things? there wasn't much of a thought behind it. People say stuff...
If it's a discussion about gender issues - Anne brings the fact of being herself a woman, like Paris bringing the fact that she's a transwoman to the table (and it's something that India has discussed on CBB21 - changing sides from the "oppressive" gender to the "oppressed" gender, which is a valid point).

She didn't say it as though to say "You used to be a boy, you weren't always on the oppressed gender" she said it as though as a boy she would know all about the "boy's club" (ie. the patriarchy) as though every male is the enemy.

[Kizzy]

It comes to something doesn't it when women are immediately oppressive as soon as a man says 'I'm a woman now'... no, you're not.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It comes to something doesn't it when women are immediately oppressive as soon as a man says 'I'm a woman now'... no, you're not.

There's one Kizzy. That was easy enough.

Maru: that's why I said A) that I am perfectly willing to agree that it's open for reasonable, considered debate and also B) that my main concern is consistency.

There isn't just a sharing of beliefs when it comes to this topic... There's some quite clear anger, and mocking, when it comes to "blokes pretending to be women" that simply isn't accepted when it comes to other topics and the main reason it's accepted is because Vicky, and to a lesser extent Niamh, the most active SD mods, have (fairly recently) been expressing open cynicism and anger towards the very concept of transsexualism. Frankly, Vicky is more or less the worst for the "blokes in frocks prancing about pretending to be real women!!" type comments.

And like I said, it wouldn't be accepted against other groups. My problem is the double standards.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's one Kizzy. That was easy enough.

Maru: that's why I said A) that I am perfectly willing to agree that it's open for reasonable, considered debate and also B) that my main concern is consistency.

There isn't just a sharing of beliefs when it comes to this topic... There's some quite clear anger, and mocking, when it comes to "blokes pretending to be women" that simply isn't accepted when it comes to other topics and the main reason it's accepted is because Vicky, and to a lesser extent Niamh, the most active SD mods, have (fairly recently) been expressing open cynicism and anger towards the very concept of transsexualism. Frankly, Vicky is more or less the worst for the "blokes in frocks prancing about pretending to be real women!!" type comments.

And like I said, it wouldn't be accepted against other groups. My problem is the double standards.

What a surprise... If you have an issue in the future just quote me don't be making out the whole forum has some kind of prejudice because you have taken exception to one comment.

There isn't anger from me, I have said many times personally I don't believe blokes can be women...female yes, women no.

I don't know how you can equate an opinion on transpeople to that of any other topic such as racism the two are not even nearly comparable.
I'll go further and refer you back to a comment you made on gaming... do you remember that conversation when you suggested I wasn't qualified to have an opinion on games or gaming?.... I'll find it if needs be.

I'm wondering now, if I didn't have the relevant experience to participate in that discussion then what credentials do you have to suggest that my opinion on this topic, that I have a lifetime of experience in to be 'wrong'?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What a surprise... If you have an issue in the future just quote me don't be making out the whole forum has some kind of prejudice because you have taken exception to one comment.

There isn't anger from me, I have said many times personally I don't believe blokes can be women...female yes, women no.

I don't know how you can equate an opinion on transpeople to that of any other topic such as racism the two are not even nearly comparable.
I'll go further and refer you back to a comment you made on gaming... do you remember that conversation when you suggested I wasn't qualified to have an opinion on games or gaming?.... I'll find it if needs be.

I'm wondering now, if I didn't have the relevant experience to participate in that discussion then what credentials do you have to suggest that my opinion on this topic, that I have a lifetime of experience in to be 'wrong'?

Don't be so self-important Kizzy; I quite explicitly stated that Vicky "is the worst for it".