[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by UserSince2005

9 year olds shouldnt be concerned about there sexuality at all.

What made him think he was gay? because he was told his was gay because he acted camp?

I think he should have just been a kid and not been encouraged to be obbessessed with his sexuality at such a young age.

such a sad story. 9 is far too young

Indeed and i would hope his mother warned him about going into school announcing that?

Obviously all the facts are not in regarding this tragic tale

[Yuki Maru Hoshi]

So horrible.

Somewhat hard to believe at 9 they (his family) didn't notice some sort of issue though... it's not like 9 year olds don't tend hide their feelings that well??... of course that could've also led to his bullying. It's not always just a matter of whether his students were homophobic or not... kids in our society will pick on and flesh out any weakness they can think of in other people as long as they can get away with it... it's a problem with society overall, but I don't think unique to the gay community... I was bullied badly growing up, sometimes over my color, but particularly my short stature... and I didn't consider it to be racism along the lines of outright hatred... it was more that I stood out and so it was easier to isolate me from the rest of the group and reinforce pecking order... of course, I was nerdy and tomboyish to a degree, so that didn't really help either ...

Smaller schools and smaller class sizes also help tremendously with this issue... I was in an Honors program when I was older and it eliminated most of my problem(s). Also group seating where everyone is forced to face each other in a circle... I never experienced much bullying in those programs. Those kids that did bully me, in high school apparently remembered, because I had a few people sign my yearbook as an apology... I think because I didn't really take it to heart so much I made a big deal of it and so a few of my bullies left apologies in my yearbook It's hilarious in retrospect...

[ArgyESC]

That's just sad.
Tbh I don't get it how he knew he was gay. Sexuality keeps developing at such an age. Maybe he thought so because he was behaving "camp" as it was already mentioned.
Regardless, he definitely shouldn't have come out to the whole school. Of course he should have kept being himself but coming out to everyone is dangerous. Kids (or more like teenagers) should be advised to come out to people they trust and not tell everyone.

[ethanjames]

is that what we are debating here how a kid knew he was gay is that the problem here??? because for myself im still confused how kids can push a poor confident child to suicide

[ArgyESC]

Originally Posted by ethanjames

is that what we are debating here how a kid knew he was gay is that the problem here??? because for myself im still confused how kids can push a poor confident child to suicide

Of course the behaviour of those kids was awful, no one is doubting that.
However, it wouldn't be easy at all for him to change their attitude. What he could easily have done though is keep himself safe. That's what we are analysing here. If all these kids keep themselves safe from bullies it will be much easier to go through it all.

[ethanjames]

Originally Posted by ArgyESC

Of course the behaviour of those kids was awful, no one is doubting that.
However, it wouldn't be easy at all for him to change their attitude. What he could easily have done though is keep himself safe. That's what we are analysing here. If all these kids keep themselves safe from bullies it will be much easier to go through it all.

kids shouldn't have to be bullied though for being who they are and we should think more about how to stop the bullying and less how to tune someones identity down. if a kid is being bullied for being out as gay i dont think being out as gay is the issue. people should be proud of him being who he wants to be.

[ArgyESC]

Originally Posted by ethanjames

kids shouldn't have to be bullied though for being who they are and we should think more about how to stop the bullying and less how to tune someones identity down. if a kid is being bullied for being out as gay i dont think being out as gay is the issue. people should be proud of him being who he wants to be.

Totally agree with you, of course that's the issue and I hope it gets better the years to come, but a little kid can't do much to change it. Many years are needed to change this situation and for now such kids should try their best not to put themselves at risk. Be yourself and let them assume whatever, coming out to everyone at your school is sadly not a very good idea even in 2018 though...

[ethanjames]

Originally Posted by ArgyESC

Totally agree with you, of course that's the issue and I hope it gets better the years to come, but a little kid can't do much to change it. Many years are needed to change this situation and for now such kids should try their best not to put themselves at risk. Be yourself and let them assume whatever, coming out to everyone at your school is sadly not a very good idea even in 2018 though...

i agree hopefully it will eventually get better!

[Christmas Lights]

Originally Posted by ArgyESC

Of course the behaviour of those kids was awful, no one is doubting that.
However, it wouldn't be easy at all for him to change their attitude. What he could easily have done though is keep himself safe. That's what we are analysing here. If all these kids keep themselves safe from bullies it will be much easier to go through it all.

I agree ,
This story is depressing as hell though , it's horrific that a kid as young as 9 can even contemplate suicide !!! Let alone actually go through with it . Clearly he had alot of psychological problems.

I think at such a young age he should of just been a kid. And worried about his sexuality when he's older. Surely at 9 he wouldn't of been thinking of relationships so why announce it ? .

And what if he was just confused and got influenced by social media and others . I already find it weird how little kids talk about dating like wtf you still sing nursery rhymes and get your food cut up by your parents .

But alot needs addressing here not just with the school,at such a young age his brain development hasn't fully matured. Maybe he didn't have the right support around him .

However bullying happens regardless of who you are etc. So even if he DIDN'T broadcast it ,he probably still would of been targeted as bullies are usually weak cowards . Even when people don't say or do anything they get picked on for no reason . So that needs tackling and teacher's and schools need to try and stop bullying! .

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by ethanjames

is that what we are debating here how a kid knew he was gay is that the problem here??? because for myself im still confused how kids can push a poor confident child to suicide

well most kids will get bullied at some time in their life but 99.999% dont kill themselves

[ethanjames]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

well most kids will get bullied at some time in their life but 99.999% dont kill themselves

yes im aware its not the kids fault they get bullied though so they shouldnt have to change themselves to fit societys norms

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by ethanjames

yes im aware its not the kids fault they get bullied though so they shouldnt have to change themselves to fit societys norms

You deal with the cards you are dealt, not the cards you want to be dealt

[Yuki Maru Hoshi]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

You deal with the cards you are dealt, not the cards you want to be dealt

Yeah and if we're unfortunate enough to pick up a lot of bad cards along the way, at least play those cards in such a way that it won't further undermine your own situation... we don't have to hide who we are to feel content with it, but we don't have to advertise it either?...

In my opinion, much of bullying is a bad mix of the attacker and victim is lacking certain key social development that can make the victim more appealing... the catch is the bully usually has a better understanding of the "social economy", how one interaction can cause one person to react a certain way, which leads to the next interaction and vice-versa...

So my opinion of the solution...

1) Yes, society should improve itself, but that will only happen only over a longer period of time, and only if we raise better kids, mend the social divide, etc... but even then, it's not "the" solution imo... it just helps reduce the natural friction caused by inequalities in personal power between peers...

2) A more practical solution (for the parents) is being involved in your child's social development. A kid can be the sweetest, most gentlest and kindest person in the group... but without learning certain social strategies, that will only get them so far. If they are trying to cope and it is only getting worse, then they may not have the social skills to analyze and fully understand the problem, much less being able to identify where they are reciprocating the interactions.

Bullies don't care about virtue signaling, but they do care about their heirarchy in a group, where most of their personal power comes from... They want the victim's status which stems from a deep seated sense of envy (believe it or a not). A peer with higher social development and sense of self would be able to unmask this quickly. However, a child who is still behind so to speak, they won't understand the power play and so they will more strongly associate with the bully's attempts to make them feel the victim. It's this victim mentality they depend on, because by undermining the self-esteem of their victims, who are usually more independent/dissociated from the rest of the group, cheats them into giving up their own personal power...

Bullies won't go after kids who are associated with a large group of folk who will be difficult to pull that child away... and they risk interacting with those individuals with stronger self-esteem in those groups who will unmask their behavior...... so they will go after the individualists, i.e. the introverts stray from the herd in some fundamental way and can be isolated... it's their independent minds that make them more quirkish, not their "victim status" (i.e. homosexual, minority, most nerdish, etc)... and those folk are not likely to be really paying attention to group dynamics to understand the attacks... so even better if those kids are struggling socially in that environment to adapt, because it means they can make repeated runs at their personal power, making them appear more powerful to their rest of the peer group...

That's part of what makes online so ripe for bullying as well (outside of anonymity)... as most of what is posted up is centered around the individual, their identity, not their "place" in the group... so it's easy to "isolate" a lone profile who be tricked into disbelieving their personal power, versus a group of folk arranged together in a clique in a physical room... would not be a tempting target at all...

In some ways, I'd say some kids are better off now than we used to be... they have better social development than we did before there was online and all that. Read this today and I thought about that specifically:

Logged off: meet the teens who refuse to use social media
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...t-social-media

[Alf]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

well most kids will get bullied at some time in their life but 99.999% dont kill themselves

This is very true.

The questions in this story need to be aimed at parenting.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

A horrid situation that is all too common. The School has since released platitude laden PR statements to cover their own arses but it looks like nothing's going to change. So sick of seeing stories like this and nothing happening as a response to it. Most schools would rather brush bullying under the table rather than deal with it and that attitude costs lives.

Another child dead in another multi-lives changing tragedy which did NOT need to happen.

I totally agree with the emboldened too because that has been my experience.

[user104658]

That a 9 year old - who can't yet even have any real concept of life and death - would take their own life is genuinely heartbreaking.

I would say though that there is clearly a longer story here... he did not kill himself after "four days" of bullying. That part of the story is utter nonsense and really underemphasises the prolonged mental anguish that leads to suicide. Also the phrasing of "she reassured him she still loved him" seems a little odd, to me. I wonder if his family really did react as well as is being reported, to be frank.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That a 9 year old - who can't yet even have any real concept of life and death - would take their own life is genuinely heartbreaking.

I would say though that there is clearly a longer story here... he did not kill himself after "four days" of bullying. That part of the story is utter nonsense and really underemphasises the prolonged mental anguish that leads to suicide. Also the phrasing of "she reassured him she still loved him" seems a little odd, to me. I wonder if his family really did react as well as is being reported, to be frank.

I wondered about his family too and how a child so young would know whether he was actually gay or not. It feels like this is only half the story and here are many unanswered questions around it.

I also don't really get the concept of coming out to people. Your sexuality is your business, not anyone else's and no one should feel pressured to have to tell others their preferences.

Bullying is as old as schools. I don't think schools know how to deal with it and part of the problem is mainstream education doesn't suit every child.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I wondered about his family too and how a child so young would know whether he was actually gay or not. It feels like this is only half the story and here are many unanswered questions around it.

I also don't really get the concept of coming out to people. Your sexuality is your business, not anyone else's and no one should feel pressured to have to tell others their preferences.

Bullying is as old as schools. I don't think schools know how to deal with it and part of the problem is mainstream education doesn't suit every child.

Kids have crushes at that age and younger sometimes, he just happened to have crushes on boys and knew what that meant. A person doesn't decide their sexuality, it simply is something that is. It's sad that we're putting his sexuality under a microscope and not the school environment that facilitated the bullying.

You don't get the concept of coming out because it's something that doesn't apply to you. LGBT people tend to be scared to be themselves, before we come out we'll change who we are and how we act in order to pass as 'normal'. Coming out is an important part of LGBT people accepting who they are and becoming confident in who they are. It's not about saying whether you like dick or vag but accepting what will be a huge part of you life and making peace with it.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Kids have crushes at that age and younger sometimes, he just happened to have crushes on boys and knew what that meant. A person doesn't decide their sexuality, it simply is something that is. It's sad that we're putting his sexuality under a microscope and not the school environment that facilitated the bullying.

You don't get the concept of coming out because it's something that doesn't apply to you. LGBT people tend to be scared to be themselves, before we come out we'll change who we are and how we act in order to pass as 'normal'. Coming out is an important part of LGBT people accepting who they are and becoming confident in who they are. It's not about saying whether you like dick or vag but accepting what will be a huge part of you life and making peace with it.

how do you know the alleged bullying happened anywhere near the school?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

how do you know the alleged bullying happened anywhere near the school?

Doesn't matter if the bullying takes place on school grounds or not, if a student is bullying another student and the link that binds them together is the school then it's the school's responsibility to act.

But, judging from the reports and testimonies, the bullying didn't happen offsite so it's a moot point all together.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Kids have crushes at that age and younger sometimes, he just happened to have crushes on boys and knew what that meant. A person doesn't decide their sexuality, it simply is something that is. It's sad that we're putting his sexuality under a microscope and not the school environment that facilitated the bullying.

You don't get the concept of coming out because it's something that doesn't apply to you. LGBT people tend to be scared to be themselves, before we come out we'll change who we are and how we act in order to pass as 'normal'. Coming out is an important part of LGBT people accepting who they are and becoming confident in who they are. It's not about saying whether you like dick or vag but accepting what will be a huge part of you life and making peace with it.

Children who are not gay also have same sex crushes at 9. At that age it's all a bit hazy really.

You have no idea about my sexuality because I haven't declared it so don't presume please.

I don't understand the concept of coming out because declaring your private life publicly is daft. It's your business, not everyone else's.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Children who are not gay also have same sex crushes at 9. At that age it's all a bit hazy really.

You have no idea about my sexuality because I haven't declared it so don't presume please.

I don't understand the concept of coming out because declaring your private life publicly is daft. It's your business, not everyone else's.

But when you know, you know.

The fact you don't understand the importance of coming out is all I need to know, really.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Kids have crushes at that age and younger sometimes, he just happened to have crushes on boys and knew what that meant. A person doesn't decide their sexuality, it simply is something that is. It's sad that we're putting his sexuality under a microscope and not the school environment that facilitated the bullying.

You don't get the concept of coming out because it's something that doesn't apply to you. LGBT people tend to be scared to be themselves, before we come out we'll change who we are and how we act in order to pass as 'normal'. Coming out is an important part of LGBT people accepting who they are and becoming confident in who they are. It's not about saying whether you like dick or vag but accepting what will be a huge part of you life and making peace with it.

...yeah basically this really ..we don’t decide our sexuality but with heterosexuality we kind of automatically fall into society expectations and assumptions etc...which do still exist but you know, it is stretching out more and more ...and that does help obviously in changing and rearranging society judgements for many...people obviously should never be forced or feel forced to come out...it’s a personal thing of if and when they want to...(...and can live their whole life having never wanted to etc...)...but sadly, there’s outing someone as well which seems to happen at times with celebrities which is so wrong...and it makes no difference to their celebrity status anyway or anything about them in any way..so it’s just wrong really...it should always be a personal and individual choice ...but in this internet world especially..it allows for so much interest in celebrity and following of celebrity etc...that it just makes it so easy in the ‘outing’...almost like a race to get that ‘exclusive’ at times is how it can feel...


..I think with some parents..?...they know their child, they feel their child in terms of realising their sexuality so are able to have that ‘talk’ with them first if they think that would be helpful to their child...they also might think their child wouldn’t want to have that ‘talk’ quite yet and leave them to their own time and own way, you know...but with other parents, assumptions can be made and expectations can be there even if it’s not realised that’s what’s happening or that’s what their child is feeling...the love and support are absolutely still there...

...this reminds me of Father and Son by Cat Stevens..’find a girl, settle down and if you want to, you can marry’...well what if it’s a boy, dad...and it’s only recently I’ve been told I can marry anyway...and even though I can now, society will still judge...CAKE SHOPS WILL NOT MAKE MY CAKE...so this is very hard for me, dad...but I’ll make the first step of coming out which is something you never had to do...because you found a girl and you settled down and you got married etc...

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I wondered about his family too and how a child so young would know whether he was actually gay or not. It feels like this is only half the story and here are many unanswered questions around it.

It doesn't matter if he knew exactly what "being gay" exactly means, he knew he was different to his peers, and he was bullied for it.

[Elliot]

I hope the central focus of this debate isn’t whether a 9 year old can realise his sexuality and instead this absurd hostile culture of bullying in schools which is ruining the mental health and even lives of millions of school kids and how schools aren’t adequalty dealing with it