[Redway]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

Ignorance.

The scientific consensus is that while biological sex is determined by genes, hormones, and genitals, one's psychological gender is entirely on the basis of how that individual self-identifies.

But go off, i guess

It’s not ignorance though is it.

I said there’s an element of truth in what she said. I wasn’t siding with her 100% and I said so.

How someone identifies can be brought under scientific concensus? That right?

[Redway]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

Ignorance.

The scientific consensus is that while biological sex is determined by genes, hormones, and genitals, one's psychological gender is entirely on the basis of how that individual self-identifies.

But go off, i guess

Did anyone go off?

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

She aint a feminist then basically, if she thinks a vagina is the sole/most important factor to determine a woman.

The irony in what she says & claims to support, boi the terf jumped out

Originally Posted by Redway

It sort of is though.

There’s an element of truth in what she said.

It's among the things that determine biological females, tis true.

Though I don't think it should affect how we see transwomen, because a)having the op doesn't make them not biologically male, if you're gonna call them she, their op status shouldn't have any baring on this and b)it's not even a vagina, it's a surgically constructed wound.

[Marsh.]

She's pointing out it goes beyond superficial things like wearing a dress or long hair. India showed herself up in that regard with the comment "Do you want me to shave my hair?" as though the length of her hair had any bearing on her sex or gender.

[Elliot]

It’s a complex debate but I don’t think mrs penises can’t be female has much to bring to it

[Maru]

An aside, we don't really ever hear about transmen at all in pop culture... it's always about transwomen... why is that? I can think of a couple of cases, but they involved pregnancies...

[Ammi]

...’you can be anything you want India’...except be who you are and have who you are recognised in law.....that’s really going a step too far...


...I don’t know who the ‘femisist’ is...but she’s a little bit silly...for most people life isn’t so cruel as to have them in the wrong body...surely the point is that India has always been living as a woman in that she’s always been a woman who was born in the body of a man...’trans’ is surely more a ‘coming out’ of someone who takes steps to have their body more aligned with the person they are and have always been from birth...?....and that would be equality for trans as well, which often gets thrown to the side and discarded, sadly....

...I mean what does she feel ‘living like a woman’ means..?...she mentioned someone who she didn’t see as a woman who only ‘wore a dress one day a week’...I don’t know who she was referring to...i don’t wear dresses that often...probably less than one day a week...so would that make me not a woman then, would that make me more of a man then because of my clothing choices..?...well no because I’m a woman...I’m fortunate enough to be a woman who was born into a woman’s body...so whatever I wear, there’s no doubt of the person I am...what people wear doesn’t define who they are, so it seems odd to even mention that in whatever she was trying to say...I was born a daughter, I grew in my family as a young female child...at school I became part of the girls on roll in my classes at my school..etc, etc ....India didn’t have any of that...she was never given that priveledge of being regarded as who she was and be allowed to grow as who she was...but as an adult she was able to trans into who she is...and that silly lady comes along and talks about her not having lived as a woman...well no...because nature put her into a male body for a large part of her life, which meant society judged her a male...

..I guess it’s an easy and manipulative question do ask...’what does living as a woman mean...?...it means, knowing you’re a woman and being able to live your life as a woman without question or judgement because of your gender, no matter what your personal life choices etc...that’s something which has been denied to India because of the body she was born into...and because of that body, there are some things...some ‘woman things’ that will always be denied to her...like childbirth for instance...but at least transitioning will give her so much fulfilment and so much completeness, she was previously denied...and only for her to be told by a silly woman ‘you’ll never completely be one of us, baby ...and that should be reflected in law and society acknowledgement’....well that silly woman might have been born in the correct body and be able to fully experience womanhood as she sees it...but what if I don’t want her as one of us though...she’s not the greatest of representatives so maybe she could be replaced by India as a better representative....hmmmmm....

...India’s journey seems to be progresssing beautifully in that she seems so much more happy within herself than when she was on Big Brother......

[arista]

I knew she would bring up Karen White
who went in a female prison and raped
women prisoners.

White had a penis.

[Underscore]

I agree 70% with the feminist and 30% with India tbh...

[Livia]

Firstly, terf is a bull**** term I do not recognise.

Secondly, here we are again. A trans woman insisting she's the same as a born woman, and she's not. She grew up as a man, a white man... with all that privilege that follows. Now, when she's chosen to be a transwoman, she still thinks the world should listen, because that's what happened when she was a man. Am I the only one who's noticed that male to female trans people are the ones who crusade, who single themselves out... while female to male trans people just get on with their lives, they seem more able to cope with hostility because when they were women, they were used to it.

I do not recognise India as a woman who is the same as me. She is not. She is a transwoman. Equal to me, worth as much, just as entitled to be happy... but not the same.

[Katty24]

Originally Posted by Livia

Firstly, terf is a bull**** term I do not recognise.

Secondly, here we are again. A trans woman insisting she's the same as a born woman, and she's not. She grew up as a man, a white man... with all that privilege that follows. Now, when she's chosen to be a transwoman, she still thinks the world should listen, because that's what happened when she was a man. Am I the only one who's noticed that male to female trans people are the ones who crusade, who single themselves out... while female to male trans people just get on with their lives, they seem more able to cope with hostility because when they were women, they were used to it.

I do not recognise India as a woman who is the same as me. She is not. She is a transwoman. Equal to me, worth as much, just as entitled to be happy... but not the same.

Well said. I agree with all of that including her growing up as a white male and the high expectations of doing so. A good case of me, me, me ... in my opinion. She never will be the same as those born and raised as women and their different life experiences, however hard she tries.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Katty24

Well said. I agree with all of that including her growing up as a white male and the high expectations of doing so. A good case of me, me, me ... in my opinion. She never will be the same as those born and raised as women and their different life experiences, however hard she tries.

Hi Katty, nice to see a new face in Serious Debates. Welcome.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Livia

Firstly, terf is a bull**** term I do not recognise.

Secondly, here we are again. A trans woman insisting she's the same as a born woman, and she's not. She grew up as a man, a white man... with all that privilege that follows. Now, when she's chosen to be a transwoman, she still thinks the world should listen, because that's what happened when she was a man. Am I the only one who's noticed that male to female trans people are the ones who crusade, who single themselves out... while female to male trans people just get on with their lives, they seem more able to cope with hostility because when they were women, they were used to it.

I do not recognise India as a woman who is the same as me. She is not. She is a transwoman. Equal to me, worth as much, just as entitled to be happy... but not the same.

You are fair enough to argue that a transwoman (such as India) grew up as a "white man" (at least, from an outside perspective), and yes the experiences of womanhood are different. Arguing otherwise is just ignoring reality, really.

The difference though, and you're free to disagree, is that someone like India did not grow up in "full" white male privilege. She was forced to conceal her gender identity in an intolerant society, and around 40% of trans women have attempted suicide, with far more experiencing depression and other mental health issues due to gender dysphoria. Therefore, I would argue that trans women have pretty first-hand experience due to their gender expression, and the struggle of women & transpeople is certainly comparable.

Trans women should be seen as a woman for those reasons, alongside their self-identification, and enjoy full rights in society and under the law as women. The reason I find TERFs disgusting is that they seem to disregard transgender people's struggles and oppression, and they ultimately see trans women as just "men in dresses" or some kind of imposter.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

You are fair enough to argue that a transwoman (such as India) grew up as a "white man" (at least, from an outside perspective), and yes the experiences of womanhood are different. Arguing otherwise is just ignoring reality, really.

The difference though, and you're free to disagree, is that someone like India did not grow up in "full" white male privilege. She was forced to conceal her gender identity in an intolerant society, and around 40% of trans women have attempted suicide, with far more experiencing depression and other mental health issues due to gender dysphoria. Therefore, I would argue that trans women have pretty first-hand experience due to their gender expression, and the struggle of women & transpeople is certainly comparable.

Trans women should be seen as a woman for those reasons, alongside their self-identification, and enjoy full rights in society and under the law as women. The reason I find TERFs disgusting is that they seem to disregard transgender people's struggles and oppression, and they ultimately see trans women as just "men in dresses" or some kind of imposter.

You don't know India's life when she was a successful white male, so you're not qualified to reach the conclusion that her experience is comparable to being a "real" woman. Nor can my perception be changed by the fact that some people who face transsexuality suffer depression. I sympathise, but I don't believe their depression will end by insisting everyone pretends they are exactly the same as those of us born as women.

You may have seen in my post that I have nothing at all against transsexual women. But they are just that, trans women. They are not the same as me. And like I said, although they are worth as much and are just as entitled to be happy and to full rights under the law as you have mentioned, they are not women in the sense that I am. I hope India has wonderful life. I wish her no ill will. But she is different from me.

Women have been oppressed for centuries. And just as we're getting some kind of equality, men are dictating to us what we should call ourselves, and that any man who identifies as a woman should be regarded as one.

I have never seen a female to male transsexual crusade on the telly, or anywhere else, insisting that they are "real men". And I believe that is because men are used to being heard and demanding things.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Livia

You don't know India's life when she was a successful white male, so you're not qualified to reach the conclusion that her experience is comparable to being a "real" woman. Nor can my perception be changed by the fact that some people who face transsexuality suffer depression. I sympathise, but I don't believe their depression will end by insisting everyone pretends they are exactly the same as those of us born as women.

You may have seen in my post that I have nothing at all against transsexual women. But they are just that, trans women. They are not the same as me. And like I said, although they are worth as much and are just as entitled to be happy and to full rights under the law as you have mentioned, they are not women in the sense that I am. I hope India has wonderful life. I wish her no ill will. But she is different from me.

Women have been oppressed for centuries. And just as we're getting some kind of equality, men are dictating to us what we should call ourselves, and that any man who identifies as a woman should be regarded as one.

I have never seen a female to male transsexual crusade on the telly, or anywhere else, insisting that they are "real men". And I believe that is because men are used to being heard and demanding things.

Your logic’s wasted on some 17-year-old kid who skips work because “it’s not his fault the job’s boring.” I hear you still.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Redway

Your logic’s wasted on some 17-year-old kid who skips work because “it’s not his fault the job’s boring.” I hear you still.

Hey Red...nice to see you x

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Secondly, here we are again. A trans woman insisting she's the same as a born woman, and she's not.

Tbf, she hasn't done that at all.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Tbf, she hasn't done that at all.

With respect, Marshy... she spent her whole time in the BB house saying "I'm a REAL woman!".

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

With respect, Marshy... she spent her whole time in the BB house saying "I'm a REAL woman!".

We're discussing this debate though in which, quite the opposite to her usual self, India was calm and reasonable in her responses.

I didn't watch most of that series so I can't comment.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

We're discussing this debate though in which, quite the opposite to her usual self, India was calm and reasonable in her responses.

I didn't watch most of that series so I can't comment.

Well, as this isn't a court and I can take previous behaviour into account to inform my judgement, she DID spend the whole time wailing that she's a REAL woman and got very upset when a much younger man didn't want to kiss her... assuming it was because she's transsexual when in actuality it may well have been because she was too old for him. Even India herself said toward the end of her stint that she had played it all wrong. And she wasn't calm and reasonable, she interrupted constantly.

And yes, she was quite calm and reasonable. But then when she was a man she had a career in broadcast television.

One thing I've noticed... it's quite telling that the strongest posts, with the worst slurs against the "feminist", are from men.

[Jase.]

Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull

[Jessica.]

The chromosome argument is stupid, people have been born with complete external and internal reproductive systems but with XY Chromosomes, some of these people have even given birth to healthy babies with the help of IVF. Anyone who takes the time to educate themselves will know that chromosomes mean almost nothing anymore when you see all of the variations and cases of people who don't fit with the assumed status quo.

India feels like she's a woman just as much as I do, she shouldn't be invalidated.

[Katty24]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

The chromosome argument is stupid, people have been born with complete external and internal reproductive systems but with XY Chromosomes, some of these people have even given birth to healthy babies with the help of IVF. Anyone who takes the time to educate themselves will know that chromosomes mean almost nothing anymore when you see all of the variations and cases of people who don't fit with the assumed status quo.

India feels like she's a woman just as much as I do, she shouldn't be invalidated.

Pretty funny hearing people trying to dismiss the value and validity of chromosomes. We wouldn’t exist without them.

[TomC]

The woman genuinely disgusted me. She spoke horrendously to India and about the trans community.

[Scarlett.]

Most transwomen are quite aware they're not the same as born women, but it seems every time a debate arises its the first point, when most trans peoples reactions would be "well, duh?" I also find it interesting that the debates are always about transwomen, transmen generally never seem to be even considered in these debates (I'm glad they don't have to go through it tbh), most trans people just wanna live their lives in peace, but time and time again we have to put up with being used as a political tool.