[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You're only looking at one side of the coin and it's not even sociological realistic. The general population has not "become right wing". Parties like Labour and the Democrats in the US adopted rhetoric (not economic, social) that they MISTAKENLY thought was popular/vote winning and it was not; it was loud voices. Loud voices on the far right, loud voices on the far left, but few in number, not the tides you need to consistently win elections. The bulk of the population - which is dotted around the centre - stood relatively still but found themselves with no political home on the left so moved over to the right under the guise of them "speaking sense". They were duped, of course, but that's largely irrelevant to this part of the discussion.

I can tell you who are the far right politicians, why they are far right, and what policies they espouse. I'd just like for someone to talk directly about who these folks on the far left are, and what are their policy aims. Until you or anyone else is willing to do that, then it's a discussion based around make believe.

If folks around the centre keep voting tory, then they are not in the centre (that would be the same if they kept voting labour, and that's a major problem with centrism, it's little more than status-quo protection, with zero policies and zero ideas). If we'd had labour govs for the majority of our lives, the centrists would align closer to labour.

When the lib dems got a whiff of power they went full on right wing. I remember them bragging about trading a 5p cost on plastic bags with making it harder for disabled people to claim benefits. That's centrism in a nutshell.

When the world skews one way or another the the centre skews itself too.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Therein lies the reality of the modern world. When Obama tried to help with the provision of healthcare he was called a communist for introducing a slighter better than they had, capitalist healthcare system. I agree they aren't big issues, and shouldn't be regarded as historically far left, yet the world has moved so far right, we have conservatives over here, perfectly fine with banning protests, allowing the elections to be handled in a purely partisan manner, law breaking by their representatives etc, etc.

This is the actual world we live in, one where anything that shows the slightest bit of compassion is derided as far left or cancel culture. In a world where corporations are working with governments to take away any ability to redress the balance, and people are cheering on their rights being cancelled before their very eyes whilst believing they are fighting against cancellation.

And that's why no one wants to answer when it comes to policy examples of this out-of-control left (that still has absolutely no power).

The left side gets abused and insulted on a daily basis by the very people who like to play victim and claim they're being "silenced" . I've lost count the overuse of things like "woke" & "snowflake" . Corbyn was repeatedly called a "socialist" like it was a dirty awful thing . The far right & the extreme wing will always twist the narrative. Musk will happily give these loud obnoxious idiots a platform.

There's movies that make fun of the left side /liberals by either making them stereotypes or making them act stupid , yet people on the other side of politics still sulk and moan about these things saying how " woke" & "millennial" it is and basically how dare the movie writers put these things into the plot . I honestly think they won't be happy until they themselves ban the very thing they claim they don't have which is ' freedom of speech', that phrase gets thrown around so much .

And everything about Musk is so irritating especially his dumb frozen face.

[bots]

Biden has been an unmitigated disaster so far in his presidency. If the dems want to be taken seriously, that has to change. Until then, they are giving air to the GoP

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

The left side gets abused and insulted on a daily basis by the very people who like to play victim and claim they're being "silenced" . I've lost count the overuse of things like "woke" & "snowflake" . Corbyn was repeatedly called a "socialist" like it was a dirty awful thing . The far right & the extreme wing will always twist the narrative. Musk will happily give these loud obnoxious idiots a platform.

There's movies that make fun of the left side /liberals by either making them stereotypes or making them act stupid , yet people on the other side of politics still sulk and moan about these things saying how " woke" & "millennial" it is and basically how dare the movie writers put these things into the plot . I honestly think they won't be happy until they themselves ban the very thing they claim they don't have which is ' freedom of speech', that phrase gets thrown around so much .

And everything about Musk is so irritating especially his dumb frozen face.

"There's movies that make fun of the left side /liberals by either making them stereotypes or making them act stupid , yet people on the other side of politics still sulk and moan about these things saying how " woke" & "millennial" it is and basically how dare the movie writers put these things into the plot . "

can you name say 2 movies that both make fun of "the left" and yet the "right" moan about the movie and say its woke?

[Crimson Dynamo]

[Nicky91]

aw boo hoo loser Musk feeling (rightfully) threatened by the democratic party


time to get rid of all those upper class morons, major taxes for them and give it to the middle class

[bots]

Musk is the richest man in the world, not my definition of a loser

[Crimson Dynamo]

But no wonder they’re having a meltdown. The woke left thought they had won,
and rightly so: the entire Western ecosystem – institutions, theatres, schools,
government entities, Silicon Valley tech and corporates more widely – has been utterly
dominated by their credo.

So when someone comes along and says that from now on Twitter won’t downgrade or
ban accounts because the politics are distasteful they throw their toys out of the pram
and act as though a literal fascist has seized control. Neutrality doesn’t mean hate
speech, which contravenes the law, as Musk has made clear, but the armies of little
Jacobins that have reigned over the site until now think that a commitment to free
speech must be a commitment to hate speech.

Shaun King, a prominent Black Lives Matter "activist" said “At its root, [Elon Musk]
wanting to purchase Twitter is… about white power.”

It is one of the sinister features of our time that free speech has become a dirty word
among millions of so-called progressives. The truth, as the Musk buyout has exposed, is
that progressivism today is actually darkly regressive – it craves censorship and
control, and hates the plurality of opinions that make up any truly liberal democracy.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...e-side-todays/

[Swan]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Shaun King, a prominent Black Lives Matter "activist" said “At its root, [Elon Musk]
wanting to purchase Twitter is… about white power.”

Tedious nonsense.

But hey, lets continue to separate and divide everything into race. It's working really well

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

But no wonder they’re having a meltdown. The woke left thought they had won,
and rightly so: the entire Western ecosystem – institutions, theatres, schools,
government entities, Silicon Valley tech and corporates more widely – has been utterly
dominated by their credo.

So when someone comes along and says that from now on Twitter won’t downgrade or
ban accounts because the politics are distasteful they throw their toys out of the pram
and act as though a literal fascist has seized control. Neutrality doesn’t mean hate
speech, which contravenes the law, as Musk has made clear, but the armies of little
Jacobins that have reigned over the site until now think that a commitment to free
speech must be a commitment to hate speech.

Shaun King, a prominent Black Lives Matter "activist" said “At its root, [Elon Musk]
wanting to purchase Twitter is… about white power.”

It is one of the sinister features of our time that free speech has become a dirty word
among millions of so-called progressives. The truth, as the Musk buyout has exposed, is
that progressivism today is actually darkly regressive – it craves censorship and
control, and hates the plurality of opinions that make up any truly liberal democracy.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...e-side-todays/

A point about twitter if the Musk purchase goes through - it will actually lead to more cancel culture, because the second identity is attached to profiles, it becomes instantly easier to go after someones work, home life, etc. All this will do is give more power to those that already have it. Can't cancel Musk, but Musk could cause a pile on that would make some random plebes life way more difficult.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

A point about twitter if the Musk purchase goes through - it will actually lead to more cancel culture, because the second identity is attached to profiles, it becomes instantly easier to go after someones work, home life, etc. All this will do is give more power to those that already have it. Can't cancel Musk, but Musk could cause a pile on that would make some random plebes life way more difficult.

Don’t you know? ‘Cancel culture’ is good as long as it’s directed at lefties who think trans people should be respected and allowed to live peacefully among everyone else, or people who think there’s still a long way to go before racial minorities are actually treated fairly

[arista]

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by arista

What a complete tool bag

[Swan]

Slim, not saying you personally, but in general, you wonder about the 'extreme left' term and if it actually exists. This how i see it. And i'll give a few examples -

Brexit -"ok, so here is why im for brexit, here is why im against it" There is no listening to opinion by the extreme left (not the left in general). All they hear/see is "for brexit" and the person trying to give their reasons is shot down, is wrong, there is nothing up for discussion. You are considered a 'good ol' right wing whitey' who 'likes things the way they are' and is completely against immigration. (I know Brexit is much more than that, it's just a quick take).

Race - (white cop arrests a black guy) "why did he get arrested, what was his crime/alleged crime, what are the facts". The extreme left make their mind up instantly, it's racism and that's that. And if you don't agree you're a racist too.

Gendering for kids/The Trans argument - Any parent, any teacher, any member of the general public should have the right to at least question what's going on with this stuff. But again, it's "aahhhh you bigot, you transphobe, if a 5 year old boy decides he wants to be a girl one day you mustn't question it, if you do you are wrong/scum"

The extreme left are made up of a group who wont listen to reason, they wont accept other's concerns, they wont allow opinion that may differ from theirs. They can't grasp the "just because i question something, doesn't mean im for, or against it" You must agree with us or you are against us. That ideology very must exists, and it's gone to the extreme now. That's the extreme left in a nutshell.

Do i think the rich should be taxed more - Yes. Do i think we need better healthcare - Yes. Do i think this Conservative Government is just as scummy as the last one - Yes. Am i, in the future open to voting Labour - Yes. Would i ever vote Conservative - HELL NO. This wouldn't be good enough for the extreme left though, because i do question trans and gender teaching. I do wonder if Brexit was the best move or not (i didn't vote fwiw). I don't see racism in everything (even though i absolutely believe it still very much exists, i just don't think it's anything like what it was historically, even 15 years plus ago, i think we are making big strides with race, still a ways to go, i know).

Just because i question subjects, topics, doesn't mean i support the right, unfortunately your individuality means nothing. "It's our way or the highway".

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Swan

Slim, not saying you personally, but in general, you wonder about the 'extreme left' term and if it actually exists. This how i see it. And i'll give a few examples -

Brexit -"ok, so here is why im for brexit, here is why im against it" There is no listening to opinion by the extreme left (not the left in general). All they hear/see is "for brexit" and the person trying to give their reasons is shot down, is wrong, there is nothing up for discussion. You are considered a 'good ol' right wing whitey' who 'likes things the way they are' and is completely against immigration. (I know Brexit is much more than that, it's just a quick take).

Race - (white cop arrests a black guy) "why did he get arrested, what was his crime/alleged crime, what are the facts". The extreme left make their mind up instantly, it's racism and that's that. And if you don't agree you're a racist too.

Gendering for kids/The Trans argument - Any parent, any teacher, any member of the general public should have the right to at least question what's going on with this stuff. But again, it's "aahhhh you bigot, you transphobe, if a 5 year old boy decides he wants to be a girl one day you mustn't question it, if you do you are wrong/scum"

The extreme left are made up of a group who wont listen to reason, they wont accept other's concerns, they wont allow opinion that may differ from theirs. They can't grasp the "just because i question something, doesn't mean im for, or against it" You must agree with us or you are against us. That ideology very must exists, and it's gone to the extreme now. That's the extreme left in a nutshell.

Do i think the rich should be taxed more - Yes. Do i think we need better healthcare - Yes. Do i think this Conservative Government is just as scummy as the last one - Yes. Am i, in the future open to voting Labour - Yes. Would i ever vote Conservative - HELL NO. This wouldn't be good enough for the extreme left though, because i do question trans and gender teaching. I do wonder if Brexit was the best move or not (i didn't vote fwiw). I don't see racism in everything (even though i absolutely believe it still very much exists, i just don't think it's anything like what it was historically, even 15 years plus ago, i think we are making big strides with race, still a ways to go, i know).

Just because i question subjects, topics, doesn't mean i support the right, unfortunately your individuality means nothing. "It's our way or the highway".

I appreciate the effort to explain things you've put in here, so I'll address them and we can see where we go.

Brexit - there was only ever one honest reason to support it - hatred of foreigners. All of the experts said it wold be disastrous for the UK, and it is. The BoE have said it will be worse for our economy than the pandemic, and the evidence clearly shows that was true. Anyone who pointed out the factual errors made by leavers were labelled as unpatriotic, project fear, and remoaners.

The problem with brexit, was that we knew how much of a nightmare it was going to be, and yet we were forced to listen to leavers telling us why the truth wasn't true, but to also comment on your point about the extreme left, an actual or real far/extreme left would be far more likely to support leave than remain. Remain is actually a fairly centrist position.

Take Corbyn - he voted remain but was pretty much up for brexit. He is the furthest left leader of the two main parties, you will probably ever see in your lifetime (and I hope you have at least a good 80 years left), so what you are assigning to the left, isn't necessarily the left, its just stuff you've had drummed into you is the left.

Race - Individuals are racist that's a fact. Regardless of what colour you are. The whole issue with race isn't necessarily about individual cases (I'm giving you my perspective), although these cases do play a part, it's more about systemic policies and practices that were initially created purposefully to target non-white people, such as stop and search.

Trans rights - no problem with anyone questioning anything, but the debate isn't about existence, dignity, and a path forward, it becomes about denigration. Pick anyone of the 8498693846398938 trans threads on here, and you'll see the same posts about genitals and bathrooms, which not only reduces a powerless minority down to an irrelevance, but most trans people are just trying to get through their days (like the rest of us), so to even have to fight for acceptance of existence is pretty demeaning. There are issues in this debate that I have concerns over, but they aren't concerns about trans people themselves.

The same arguments about black or gay people have been dragged out of the 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's and rehashed to appeal to generally good and right minded people in the 2020's. All the arguments against them involve predators, saving our wimin, and fear. The same as it ever was.

The extreme left are made up of a group who wont listen to reason, they wont accept other's concerns, they wont allow opinion that may differ from theirs. They can't grasp the "just because i question something, doesn't mean im for, or against it" You must agree with us or you are against us. That ideology very must exists, and it's gone to the extreme now. That's the extreme left in a nutshell.

Do you have an example because all I see is the Keyser Sozification of a few people on twitter that don't have any power. Meanwhile you have a proto fascist government in the UK, that has banned protest, taken control of the elections, and knowingly sent our relatives back in to covid care homes. Do you see the way you're being shown the shiny object of a group with zero power, whilst the actual government with an 80 seat majority and all the power are actually infringing on your rights and destroying your country whilst blaming the left? Watch a couple of Boris speeches and you'll see all the same guff about woke and snowflakes.

I can't in good conscience vote for the tories, lib-dems, or labour because I don't vote for right wing parties. I will only be voting for the greens or abstain until the labour party returns to a left wing party.

[user104658]

I understand where you're coming from Slim because a couple of years back I was making all of the same arguments practically verbatim. All I can really do is reiterate what I said before - I know for a fact that a (not currently small, and still growing, especially in under-25's, but not exclusively by any means) group exists that you simply don't believe exists, because you haven't seen it. That's fair enough. I don't disagree with the vast majority of what you have to say on the issue and I certainly don't align with the Tories/brexiteers et al... I think you're just missing that the mechanisms you're talking about (distraction from the real issues) don't, and simply can't, rely on the naivety and ignorance of just one group. Tribalism by its very nature requires two or more tribes. I think the assumption that one is more upstanding than the other can only ever really be rooted in personal bias... It's the same donkey in a different hat.

Very briefly on the actual issue of transpeople I can only repeat, again, that it isn't about thinking that transpeople are predators, it's about the complete and utter failure to consider that certain aspects of trans rights that are being fought for (and gradually won) are wide open to exploitation BY predators who are not transpeople at all. They're mostly common or garden men. They are a danger to women, to children, and because of the backlash against genuine trans people, they're a massive danger to them too. This is an issue that did not exist in gay rights, or in race equality. It's a false comparison lacking several of the key components of what makes it an issue at all.

But hey who cares about any of that so long as we all look like we're "on the right side of history", I guess.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I understand where you're coming from Slim because a couple of years back I was making all of the same arguments practically verbatim. All I can really do is reiterate what I said before - I know for a fact that a (not currently small, and still growing, especially in under-25's, but not exclusively by any means) group exists that you simply don't believe exists, because you haven't seen it. That's fair enough. I don't disagree with the vast majority of what you have to say on the issue and I certainly don't align with the Tories/brexiteers et al... I think you're just missing that the mechanisms you're talking about (distraction from the real issues) don't, and simply can't, rely on the naivety and ignorance of just one group. Tribalism by its very nature requires two or more tribes. I think the assumption that one is more upstanding than the other can only ever really be rooted in personal bias... It's the same donkey in a different hat.

Very briefly on the actual issue of transpeople I can only repeat, again, that it isn't about thinking that transpeople are predators, it's about the complete and utter failure to consider that certain aspects of trans rights that are being fought for (and gradually won) are wide open to exploitation BY predators who are not transpeople at all. They're mostly common or garden men. They are a danger to women, to children, and because of the backlash against genuine trans people, they're a massive danger to them too. This is an issue that did not exist in gay rights, or in race equality. It's a false comparison lacking several of the key components of what makes it an issue at all.

But hey who cares about any of that so long as we all look like we're "on the right side of history", I guess.

I hope the addition of that last line made you feel better, because I had a whole different reply to continue the discussion. Really weird, but hey, I'll let you get back to discussing bathrooms and other peoples genitals with everyone else, which is totally normal behaviour

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I hope the addition of that last line made you feel better, because I had a whole different reply to continue the discussion. Really weird

It's not weird at all it's the crux of the entire issue. Everyone wants to think they're on the right side of history. It's a catchphrase that sums up the exact distraction and division that you're talking about. If you believe there is one in any meaningful way then there's no way to discuss the nuances of any issue at all.

I'll let you get back to discussing bathrooms and other peoples genitals with everyone else, which is totally normal behaviour

G'wan, find me one example of me doing this

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not weird at all it's the crux of the entire issue. Everyone wants to think they're on the right side of history. It's a catchphrase that sums up the exact distraction and division that you're talking about. If you believe there is one in any meaningful way then there's no way to discuss the nuances of any issue at all.



G'wan, find me one example of me doing this

Nah, it's just more of the same weird petulant sh1t you always end up falling back on, especially in these debates. I've seen you do it loads of times.

You just didn't like that your opinions were being challenged, on your terms and in your language. Both of us bemoan the lack of discussion on here. We finally get a discussion going, and you try to make it about my profile (which was actually about Corbyn on Russia - not me) and pretending it's about looking as though I'm in the right. It's childish nonsense that you would see straight trough if it was anyone else.


It's cool, I just won't waste my time with this weirdo sh1t anymore.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Nah, it's just more of the same weird petulant sh1t you always end up falling back on, especially in these debates. I've seen you do it loads of times.



You just didn't like that your opinions were being challenged, on your terms and in your language. Both of us bemoan the lack of discussion on here. We finally get a discussion going, and you try to make it about my profile (which was actually about Corbyn on Russia - not me) and pretending it's about looking as though I'm in the right. It's childish nonsense that you would see straight trough if it was anyone else.





It's cool, I just won't waste my time with this weirdo sh1t anymore.

Wafer thin really, the "sides of history" comment was a dogwhistle for sure but that's all it took for you to start mirroring the exact shutdown tactics I'm talking about that come from the people who you claim don't exist. "We could discuss this but unfortunately you are all just weirdos obsessed with what genitals people have UwU". Those aren't even your own words . Default.

Interestingly though what seems to have bugged you is that you think I was saying its all about appearences; that you're virtue signalling. That's not what I think at all. I think you just genuinely think that there's a clear line in the sand of history and that you're on the right side of it. I don't think that line exists. We're not missing out on a discussion here because those are not compatible premises.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

you try to make it about my profile (which was actually about Corbyn on Russia - not me) and pretending it's about looking as though I'm in the right. It's childish nonsense that you would see straight trough if it was anyone else.

Ohhh just to go back to this, as maybe it caused some confusion, I've just gone on the PC and noticed that this is your user title - I was on Tapatalk before and actually had no idea what you were talking about when you said "your profile", doubly confused as I knew what I was referring to had nothing to do with Corbyn or Russia. So FWIW (not much, I'm sure) the comment was not about your profile, it was about this:

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Another group that have already been proved to be on the right side of history being dismissed as kooks, as the planet is on the verge of being destroyed. Still, look at the scruffy oiks, eh?

https://www.thisisbigbrother.com/for...5&postcount=91

(A quite clear statement that you believe in the premise)

[user104658]

It's fairly evident that you've gone totally off-piste with your own frustrations here and also abundantly evident who it is shutting down conversation... We've gone from me making a loaded comment about "the right side of history" to "me hounding Dezzy, Smithy and Twosugars off the forum" in a matter of two posts.

I know people get frustrated when their deeply-held ideologies are challenged in ways that they can't effectively back up without getting angry.

If that makes people feel "hounded" or disengage entirely that's not really on me is it? For what it's worth, Twosugars was clearly deeply affected by the start of the pandemic and the worrying level of doom posting was starting to cause clear anxiety in multiple other members. Yes I called that out and in hindsight not as gently as I might have but to call it "hounding" is grasping at straws.

Not really much to say here, I think some self-reflection on your trigger topics is probably warranted because you seem to think you're capable of objectively discussing some topics that you evidently are not, and have a clear moral stance on.

I'm literally baffled that you've boiled over because of a one-line dogwhistle and a pretty gentle one at that.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's fairly evident that you've gone totally off-piste with your own frustrations here and also abundantly evident who it is shutting down conversation... We've gone from me making a loaded comment about "the right side of history" to "me hounding Dezzy, Smithy and Twosugars off the forum" in a matter of two posts.

I know people get frustrated when their deeply-held ideologies are challenged in ways that they can't effectively back up without getting angry.

If that makes people feel "hounded" or disengage entirely that's not really on me is it? For what it's worth, Twosugars was clearly deeply affected by the start of the pandemic and the worrying level of doom posting was starting to cause clear anxiety in multiple other members. Yes I called that out and in hindsight not as gently as I might have but to call it "hounding" is grasping at straws.

Not really much to say here, I think some self-reflection on your trigger topics is probably warranted because you seem to think you're capable of objectively discussing some topics that you evidently are not, and have a clear moral stance on.

I'm literally baffled that you've boiled over because of a one-line dogwhistle and a pretty gentle one at that.

I mean, just saying you saw the debate go the way you imagined doesn't make it true. The discussion was on your terms in your language, there was no frustration, it's clear to anyone who reads this. You changed the debate and are now trying to attempt to patronise your way to victory and pretending I'm all angry and frustrated, which just isn't backed up by anything other than you repeating it. It was on your terms in your language, and that's what you didn't like.

I'll make one more point about 2s before I leave your to your fantasies. You weren't a little over zealous, you were on his case day after day. It made a few people really uncomfortable. But if you can BS about a discussion happening in real time, you can definitely BS about something that happened a while back.

I'm out on this anyway, unless you come back to BS about 2s again, because I'm sure we could both do this nonsense all day of just going back and forth and go nowhere, and while watching you flounder by projection is entertaining, the snooker is way more entertaining.

Enjoy your bank holiday.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Really weird, but hey, I'll let you get back to discussing bathrooms and other peoples genitals with everyone else, which is totally normal behaviour

Nah, it's just more of the same weird petulant sh1t you always end up falling back on, especially in these debates. I've seen you do it loads of times.

You just didn't like that your opinions were being challenged

It's childish nonsense

I just won't waste my time with this weirdo sh1t anymore.

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Trust me dude, nothing you said bugged or bothered me.

I was telling someone in PM exactly what you would do in this "discussion" before you did it, through the whole conversation, and whaddya know it ended as I said it would.

( not really sure where to start with that one above)

We all saw the way you used to do it to Dezzy, Smithy and everyone, especially the way you hounded 2 sugars off the forum.

maybe thinking you were better than some of the mouth breathers is my error

Just own it and keep it moving. This is what you do, and I don't want to deal with the stupidity anymore, Pretty simple stuff.

leave your to your fantasies.

watching you flounder by projection is entertaining, the snooker is way more entertaining.

Ad hominem after ad hominem after ad hominem. Yes, people can see.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

( not really sure where to start with that one above)












Ad hominem after ad hominem after ad hominem. Yes, people can see.

I just held a mirror up to the way you took this conversation, and the way you act. When the discussion was about the topic, I was in, when you took it away, it was the end. Pretty obvious and visible.

The fact you're still scrambling is hilarious though. If I'm what you claimed a few post ago posts ago, none of this should bother you in the slightest, so move on.

Of course, the "Look as though you're on the right side of history" comment, that took place in the discussion, and not after it, is definitely not an ad hominem though, right?