[Northern Monkey]

I'm not sure it matters what their sexuality was tbh.They were people in a nightclub and were attacked by a terrorist.People of every sexuality have been killed by these bastards.Not sure what the big deal is with the semantics of these poor people's sexuality.It can happen to any of us who are in a public place.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I'm not sure it matters what their sexuality was tbh.They were people in a nightclub and were attacked by a terrorist.People of every sexuality have been killed by these bastards.Not sure what the big deal is with the semantics of these poor people's sexuality.It can happen to any of us who are in a public place.

Because they were predominantly LBGT people in a gay nightclub and it proves that it some facets of our society they are still not accepted. It's pretty straightforward really

And acknowledging that this was a hate crime does not diminish all of the other attacks that have taken place

[armand.kay]

they were targeted specifically because of their sexuality so their sexuality has everything to do with it.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Because they were predominantly LBGT people in a gay nightclub and it proves that it some facets of our society they are still not accepted. It's pretty straightforward really

Exactly, the attack (whether motivated by ISIS allegiance or personal homophobia) was targetted specifically at a group of people as a statement; that their lifestyle is sinful / wrong / should not be accepted. Now, religious extremists tend to believe this about all sorts of aspects of life in the west, but it can't be ignored that homosexuality - and our acceptance of it - is one of the biggest of the things that conflict with their ideologies.

So it is VITAL that we don't ignore that aspect of this attack. Not because "only gay people can own the hurt caused" as those screeching bullies (they tagteamed and talked over him; NOT good journalism ffs) on Sky News would have us believe is the intent... but because it is important to show solidarity... to stand up and say "We know what you want, we know what you are trying to do, but you will fail, and the people and lifestyles that you hate will ALWAYS be accepted and embraced in our countries, no matter what you do." It is EVEN MORE important that straight people do this.

VERY SADLY from reading and seeing various things since this tragedy, I am starting to realise that the truth is... for a large number of people that simply is still not the case at all.

[bots]

i honestly don't see what all this arguing over semantics is intended to achieve, as if labeling it one thing or another makes it worse/better depending on which side you are on.

It was a hate crime specifically against a particular group, it was a terrorist attack. The man may have been mentally unstable, maybe not. It really doesn't matter. It was still an horrific act. No normal person would consider taking that action against anyone, its not typical behaviour. Its not indicative of a trend. There aren't suddenly going to be 100 more that will say, I will now do that too, because it just isn't normal.

Its heartbreaking that there are people like that in the world, but its bound to happen with the numbers of population that we have. Compound that with a terrorist group that are excusing their behaviour by latching on to an interpretation of a religion, that itself has millions of followers and you will get these crazy people.

[ThriceShy]

Originally Posted by armand.kay

they were targeted specifically because of their sexuality so their sexuality has everything to do with it.

You have no evidence they were targeted for their sexuality,

[ThriceShy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Exactly, the attack (whether motivated by ISIS allegiance or personal homophobia) was targetted specifically at a group of people as a statement; that their lifestyle is sinful / wrong / should not be accepted. Now, religious extremists tend to believe this about all sorts of aspects of life in the west, but it can't be ignored that homosexuality - and our acceptance of it - is one of the biggest of the things that conflict with their ideologies.

So it is VITAL that we don't ignore that aspect of this attack. Not because "only gay people can own the hurt caused" as those screeching bullies (they tagteamed and talked over him; NOT good journalism ffs) on Sky News would have us believe is the intent... but because it is important to show solidarity... to stand up and say "We know what you want, we know what you are trying to do, but you will fail, and the people and lifestyles that you hate will ALWAYS be accepted and embraced in our countries, no matter what you do." It is EVEN MORE important that straight people do this.

VERY SADLY from reading and seeing various things since this tragedy, I am starting to realise that the truth is... for a large number of people that simply is still not the case at all.

So why were he and his wife scoping other targets including disney world?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by ThriceShy

So why were he and his wife scoping other targets including disney world?

The fact that they considered other targets has absolutely no bearing on the fact that the target they did choose was, at least in a significant part, chosen because it was a gay club.

You've aptly demonstrated over several pages that you don't understand that nor the implications so I feel it would be a waste of time to elaborate any further.

[ThriceShy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The fact that they considered other targets has absolutely no bearing on the fact that the target they did choose was, at least in a significant part, chosen because it was a gay club.

You've aptly demonstrated over several pages that you don't understand that nor the implications so I feel it would be a waste of time to elaborate any further.

How do you know it was chosen because it was a gay club?

The shooter hasn't said that and the wife is only now speaking to the FBI. Aren't you going to wait until the investigation is done before deciding on why a particular target was picked?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by ThriceShy

How do you know it was chosen because it was a gay club?

The shooter hasn't said that and the wife is only now speaking to the FBI. Aren't you going to wait until the investigation is done before deciding on why a particular target was picked?

Because the fact that a religious extremist attacking a gay club is linked to the fact that it is a gay club is plainly ****ing obvious to anyone with half a brain and half an understanding of extremist ideologies and religious prejudices. Religious extremists are known to be homophobic because their little books tell them to be. One such extremist murdered dozens of gay people, in a gay club. It is relevant.

And no I don't need to wait for the important men in their important suits with their important jobs to tell me what I think. I'm capable of getting there without help, amazingly.

[Amy Jade]

His father and wife said he hated gays and would get angry seeing a gay couple together so even if he did apparently scope out Disney he evidently had issues with homosexuality or else why chose that especific club?

I don't beleven for a second it was random

[Tom4784]

Everyone is being so silly, It had nothing to do with the LGBT community, he just happened to target gay people at a gay club during Pride Month.

It could have happened to anyone.

[Ammi]

...well, whatever hates he felt and whoever he felt those hates toward, there was only one hate that he acted on with his death weapons and only one hate that ended those lives and only one hate that was targeted..whatever else that was in his head, that will never change, that gay people only were the target of this terrorist act of hate...making it by definition, a terrorist act of hate toward the LGBT community...

[VanessaFeltz.]

some people need to stop playing with words it is really annoying me.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Think its more to do him having been radicalised online, pledging allegiance to ISIS and carrying out a targeted attack on the LGBT community

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...well, whatever hates he felt and whoever he felt those hates toward, there was only one hate that he acted on with his death weapons and only one hate that ended those lives and only one hate that was targeted..whatever else that was in his head, that will never change, that gay people only were the target of this terrorist act of hate...making it by definition, a terrorist act of hate toward the LGBT community...

I hope the COWARDLY terrorist bastard rots in hell for eternity.

[Crimson Dynamo]

psychopathic tendencies: check
religion from birth: check
Living in a place that is not his home and feeling incongruous: check
At odds with true sexuality: check
Availability of combat weaponry: check
Feeling isolated and ashamed due to sexuality: check
Going to the club and still feeling it and getting rage about people who are out and getting partners: check
depression: check
suicidal thoughts: check
rage: check

murder

[Cherie]

Or radicalised and takes on a soft target ..check

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Or radicalised and takes on a soft target ..check

You say that like "being radicalised" is something that just happens, like stubbing your toe. All of the things that LT listed above are ways that a person might become radicalised in the first place.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

psychopathic tendencies: check
religion from birth: check
Living in a place that is not his home and feeling incongruous: check
At odds with true sexuality: check
Availability of combat weaponry: check
Feeling isolated and ashamed due to sexuality: check
Going to the club and still feeling it and getting rage about people who are out and getting partners: check
depression: check
suicidal thoughts: check
rage: check

murder

A perfect candidate as far as IS is concerned then.

"...

Supporters of the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria from all over the world should attack citizens of Western states such as the US, France and UK, according to a statement by the group’s spokesman.

Abu Mohammed al Adnani urged the group’s supporters: “If you can kill a disbelieving American or European – especially the spiteful and filthy French – or an Australian, or a Canadian, or any other disbeliever from the disbelievers waging war, including the citizens of the countries that entered into a coalition against the Islamic State, then rely upon Allah, and kill him in any manner or way, however it may be,” he said.

..."


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-9749512.html

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You say that like "being radicalised" is something that just happens, like stubbing your toe. All of the things that LT listed above are ways that a person might become radicalised in the first place.

LT is focussing on him being gay, as you say there are many reasons people become radicalised, we have no idea if he was gay all we know is he visited the club, he also visited a Disney Mall that doesn't make him a serial shopper

[ThriceShy]

Originally Posted by Amy Jade

His father and wife said he hated gays and would get angry seeing a gay couple together so even if he did apparently scope out Disney he evidently had issues with homosexuality or else why chose that especific club?

I don't beleven for a second it was random

If he got angry seeing gay men kissing then why would he attend a gay club at least 6 times and have a profile on a gay dating site?

You would avoid the club if you couldn't stand to see gay men together.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by ThriceShy

If he got angry seeing gay men kissing then why would he attend a gay club at least 6 times and have a profile on a gay dating site?

You would avoid the club if you couldn't stand to see gay men together.

Because time spent in reconnaissance is seldom wasted.

[ThriceShy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...well, whatever hates he felt and whoever he felt those hates toward, there was only one hate that he acted on with his death weapons and only one hate that ended those lives and only one hate that was targeted..whatever else that was in his head, that will never change, that gay people only were the target of this terrorist act of hate...making it by definition, a terrorist act of hate toward the LGBT community...

But the new info seems to suggest that he was gay himself. He had a profile on a gay dating app and would try and pick up men in that club.

The perpetrator of this was gay so they were killed by a member of their own community. If he were straight then you might have a point.

[ThriceShy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Because time spent in reconnaissance is seldom wasted.

What we are hearing is that he actively tried to pick men up during those visits. And you don't need a gay dating profile to do reconnaissance on a club.

He was gay, or at least bisexual. And I think he shot the club up because it was convenient to shoot up a place he knew well. Just like the san bernardino couple shot up his workplace.