[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Shasown

You are missing the point, on that. If Joseph had died before Jesus was able to take care of Mary they would have been adopted into a relatives family and would have been treated as part of that family to all intents and purposes, even under the eyes of the law(Mosaic), cousins would have been treated as brothers. (This included inheritance from the adoptive uncle's estate).

Given that the Catholic Church both Roman and Eastern Orthodox in the early days wrote the bloody Gospels etc, I leave explanations to them and interpretations to those faiths that disagree with their teachings.

do you know that Joseph died before Jesus was able to take care of Mary?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by InOne

I have read it.

all of it?

[InOne]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

all of it?

Alot of it yes. There is good and bad stuff in it, just like any other religious book.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

do you know that Joseph died before Jesus was able to take care of Mary?

Well Joseph was definately dead or severely incapacitated by the time of the marriage of Cana. (John 2:1-10) as JC appears in the role of eldest male in the family, being called to represent the family at the wedding, then his mum asking him to sort something out for the guests. Would indicate the responsibility of hospitality fell to himself and Mary. (Paterfamilias)

Interestingly enough seeing as you are big on interpretations, it could be interpreted that verse 9 is spoken to Jesus although its said to be the bridegroom - and also responsibility for hospitality normally fell to the bridegroom in those days. Was Jesus the bridegroom? Does this prove that Jesus did in fact get married? Of course it doesnt however its the same sort of inference you use when claiming that those named in Matt 12:46 and Mark 6:3 are children of Joseph and Mary (given that elsewhere in the New Testament stronger indications of their geneology is provided)

[Crimson Dynamo]

Did Mary Have Other Children?

One of the more controversial teachings of the Catholic church deals with the perpetual virginity of Mary. This doctrine maintains that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus and that biblical references suggesting Jesus had siblings are really references to cousins (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 510).

As the veneration of Mary increased throughout the centuries, the vehicle of Sacred Tradition became the means of promoting new doctrines not explicitly taught in the Bible. The virginity of Mary is clearly taught in scripture when describing the birth of Jesus. But is the doctrine of her continued virginity supported by the Bible? Did Mary lose her virginity after Jesus was born? Does the Bible reveal that Mary had other children, that Jesus had brothers and sisters?

The Bible does not come out and declare that Mary remained a virgin and that she had no children. In fact, the Bible seems to state otherwise: (All quotes are from the NASB.)

Matthew 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."

Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."

Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"

Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"

John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."

Acts 1:14 - "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."

1 Cor. 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"

Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."

An initial reading of these biblical texts seems to clear up the issue: Jesus had brothers and sisters. But such obvious scriptures are not without their response from Catholic Theologians. The primary argument against these biblical texts is as follows:

In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents (Matt. 1:2; 14:3), descendants of parents (Acts 7:23, 26; Heb. 7:5), the Jews as a whole (Acts 3:17, 22), etc. Therefore, the term brother (and sister) can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus.

There is certainly merit in this argument, However, different contexts give different meanings to words. It is not legitimate to say that because a word has a wide scope of meaning, that you may then transfer any part of that range of meaning to any other text that uses the word. In other words, just because the word brother means fellow Jews or cousin in one place, does not mean it has the same meaning in another. Therefore, each verse should be looked at in context to see what it means.

Lets briefly analyze a couple of verses dealing with the brothers of Jesus.

Matthew 12:46-47, "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."

Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"

In both of these verses, if the brothers of Jesus are not brothers, but His cousins, then who is His mother and who is the carpenters father? In other words, mother here refers to Mary. The carpenter in Matt. 13:55, refers to Joseph. These are literal. Yet, the Catholic theologian will then stop there and say, "Though carpenters son refers to Joseph, and mother refers to Mary, brothers does not mean brothers, but "cousins." This does not seem to be a legitimate assertion. You cannot simply switch contextual meanings in the middle of a sentence unless it is obviously required. The context is clear. This verse is speaking of Joseph, Mary, and Jesus brothers. The whole context is of familial relationship: father, mother, and brothers.
Psalm 69, A Messianic Psalm

There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, they hated Me without a cause."

He also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, "and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Fathers house a house of merchandise." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Thy house will consume me."

Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.

To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9, "Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."

This messianic Psalm clearly shows that Jesus has brothers. As Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets." Gods will has been revealed plainly in the New Testament and prophetically in the Old. Psalm 69 shows us that Jesus had brothers.

Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?

Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say, otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.

The question is, "Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?". Yes, He was. John 7:5 says "For not even His brothers were believing in Him." Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says both "my brothers" and "my mother's sons." Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings? Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons" we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by his siblings, His very half-brothers begotten from Mary.

It is sad to see the Roman Catholic church go to such lengths to maintain Mary's virginity, something that is a violation of biblical law to be married and fill the earth.

http://www.carm.org/did-mary-have-other-children

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Did Mary Have Other Children?

Matthew 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."

Proves only she was a virgin while giving birth to JC, doesnt mean that afterwards her and Joseph did any horizontal dancing, what other wording should they in your opinion have used?

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"

Mark 6:2-3 - "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"

Matthew 27:56 among them was Mary Magdalene along with Mary the mother of James and Joseph and the mother of the sons of Zebedee" ( james and john)

Mark 16:1 and when the Sabbath was over Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of james and Salome

Mark 15:40 and there were also some women looking on from afar among them were mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James the Less and Joses and Salome.

Luke 24:10 Now they were Mary Magdalene and joanna and Mary the mother of James

Mary - mother of James and Joseph (Matthew 27:56), referred to by Matthew as "The other Mary" (Matthew 27:61, 28:1). She had followed Jesus from Galilee, and watched from a distance, together with Mary, the mother of Jesus, and Mary of Magdala, when Jesus was crucified (Matthew 27:55-56). She was also among the women who went to the grave to anoint His body. According to John 19:25, she was a sister of Mary, Jesus' mother, and the wife of Cliopas.

(Incidentally according to Mosiac tradition only relatives of the deceased could dress the body yet Mary Magdalene prepared his body for burial and then again went to his tomb to redress the body, wouldnt this once again indicate she was his wife? Along with JC's interference in her stoning - again a husband could stop this punishment being inflicted on his wife).

Simon the Apostle was one of the twelve apostles of Jesus. He received the authority to cast out unclean spirits and to heal every kind of ailment and disease (Matthew 10:1-4). The name Simon means "God has heard." Simon was also known as Simon the Zealot.

Thaddaeus was one of the 12 Apostles. It is believed that he was also known as Judas, son of James (not to be confused with Judas Iscariot). In some New Testament passages, the name Thaddaeus appears among the list of 12 Apostles. But in other New Testament passages, the name Judas, son of James, appears instead. In ancient times, a person could have two or three different names, such as a Greek-language name and a Hebrew name. And, sometimes people were known primarily by their occupational title.

The name Thaddaeus appears in the list of Apostles given in Matthew 10:3, between James, son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot. In Mark 3:18, the name Thaddaeus appears, again, in the same placement. In Acts 1:13, however, a man named Judas, son of James, is listed below Simon. And in Luke 6:16, Judas (son of James), is listed again among the 12 Apostles, between Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot. In John 14:22, there is a reference to Judas (not Iscariot) who spoke to Jesus. The two names, however, never appear in the same book, lending credence to the belief that they both refer to the same person.

But the kicker is:

John 19:25 -- The Crucifixion

“Standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother and HIS MOTHER’S SISTER, MARY THE WIFE OF CLOPAS, and Mary Magdala.”

This mysterious “Mary” appears again; this time called “Mary the wife of Clopas.” If this passage is speaking about three women, rather than four (as it almost certainly is), the comma after “his mother’s sister” may be identifying Clopas’ wife as the sister (or ‘tribal-relative’) of Jesus’ mother. This would explain the gospel writers’ use of the Greek word “adelphos” (as a translation of the Hebrew “ah”), which could mean brother (or sister in the feminine), as well as cousin, nephew, relative, etc. If Clopas’ wife was the sister (i.e., close, tribal relative) of Jesus’ mother, then Clopas’ sons, James and Joseph (Jose), could very well be called Jesus’ “brethren” (i.e., part of His extended tribal family).

This fits, since neither James and Joseph/Jose (nor any of the “brothers”) are EVER called the sons of Joseph.

It is also quite possible that, as John’s gospel so often does, this reference to Mary as “wife of Clopas” is a conscious intention to clear up any questions about the “mother of James and Joseph (Jose)” in the Synoptics -- that is, to clearly distinguish her from Jesus’ mother.

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents (Matt. 1:2; 14:3), descendants of parents (Acts 7:23, 26; Heb. 7:5), the Jews as a whole (Acts 3:17, 22), etc. Therefore, the term brother (and sister) can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus.

Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say, otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.

Its not just the Roman Catholic church though is it , its also the Eastern Orthodox, Islam and the founders of Calvinism, Lutheranism and Wesleyanism.

Its only really the pick and mix christians of some modern protestant denominations that argue this.

The arguments about the context of the word brother are very weak, they accept it can be mean step relatives even cousin or people who share the same faith. but not in this context or that context.

Would the gospel writers say Mary mother of James and Joseph when referring to his own mother? Especially when he is being crucified, nah somehow I dont think so.

Why is she never called the mother of Jesus in the cross/tomb accounts? (Wouldn’t that be easier than constantly “switching” between James and Jose?)

Why is she never called the mother of the other brothers, Simon and Judas?

Why isn’t she simply called the wife of Joseph?

Why is she always listed second (and in Luke, third) after Mary Magdalene?

Why does Matthew refer to her as merely “the other Mary” in 28:1?

Why does John cite a second Mary at the cross: Mary the wife of Clopas? (A character who doesn’t appear in the Synoptics, unless she’s the mother of James and Joseph.)

If John is calling his “Mary the wife of Clopas” the virgin Mary’s sister, how can the word “adelphos” (or “adelphe” in the feminine) be taken literally? Two sisters both named Mary?!

It therefore must be admitted that, if “Mary the mother of James and Joseph/Jose” and Jesus’ mother are one and the same, then

The three Synoptics (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) are INTENTIONALLY neglecting to call her Jesus’ mother in their cross/tomb accounts (as if she’s not Jesus’ mother anymore.)

The Synoptics are also INTENTIONALLY depicting her as a minor character, less important than Mary Magdalene. And, in the case of Matthew, she’s reduced to merely “the other Mary” in 28:1.


Given the history of the Christian Faith, protestants breaking away because of disagreements over policy or matters of faith etc and the root of the faith from current catholocism (orthodox or Roman) back to the early christian church, either the whole religion is made up, or else the decisions on belief taken in the early days by the Church fathers had a reason namely they were facts.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

It is sad to see the Roman Catholic church go to such lengths to maintain Mary's virginity, something that is a violation of biblical law to be married and fill the earth.

http://www.carm.org/did-mary-have-other-children

What a novel concept, biblical law.

So you are advocating circumcision, not eating pork, women being classed as unclean during and after menstruation and for 40 days after childbirth. Stoning for adultery.

Do you eat Kosher meat? And you really ought to start going to church on a Saturday(Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy). It even advocates slavery. (Ex 21:20-21)

Thats all biblical law as well. or do you just pick and mix what supports your arguments and deny things that dont?

Nice to see modern protestantism taking a huge leap forward.