[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by kizzy

Thats the only people who will have jobs soon, those on temporary 12 week contracts...no holiday pay, no pension, no job security ...That will be a thing of the past.

Hate to break it to you but even those in long term perm employ rarely have any real job security anymore.....more so those in the private sector.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by kizzy

Its a generalisation then to suggest striking people are militant...Maybe they feel that if enough people voice the same view it will make a difference?
Hmmmm, who mentioned miners?....haha

Better tell the government every child matters.....

Let me guess...Especially in child services they 'don't have any funding available'.....
Everywhere else it is not their department, and you get so frustrated you give up?

Militant is the correct term to be used for those who aggressively take a stance for 'their cause': generalising it as such, is more than reasonable.

As for enough people with voices: empty vessels make the most noise - so nope, no difference will be made.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

I think you need to check back on what you replied to the question I asked - your reply being above for ease.

I did not suggest anything. I quoted your very own sentiments/comment which is exactly what you said.

I don't need to check back.....I replied once, theres no need to do it again.
Do you not understand my view?...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

Hate to break it to you but even those in long term perm employ rarely have any real job security anymore.....more so those in the private sector.

The private sector is not in discussion here.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

Militant is the correct term to be used for those who aggressively take a stance for 'their cause': generalising it as such, is more than reasonable.

As for enough people with voices: empty vessels make the most noise - so nope, no difference will be made.

Define aggressive....
Empty vessels?....Explain this I do not understand, do you not feel the teaching profession has a voice?

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by kizzy

I don't need to check back.....I replied once, theres no need to do it again.
Do you not understand my view?...

Nope I don't believe you have offered up anything that has real value for you to substantiate your belief in what can be achieved by a one day strike- as you yourself said below that you had no clue what would realistically be achieved by a one day strike.

That means you are supporting them but have no real grounds for making that choice to support them, as you stated yourself, you have no clue what difference it would make.

Originally Posted by kizzy

The private sector is not in discussion here.

You will find that this impacts upon the private sector very much - many parents of whom work in the private sector - parents of said students who will have to find some way to work around such pathetic actions by some teachers who appear to have no real sense of how fortunate they are this particular time. Any public servant (who are paid for their services from the public tax payers money) who chose strike action: do have a right for it to be questioned by all others in the UK who contribute financially to the fiscal purse. therefore it does indeed have much to do with the private sector - who are also UK citizens and have a right to reply.

Originally Posted by kizzy

Define aggressive....
Empty vessels?....Explain this I do not understand, do you not feel the teaching profession has a voice?

If you need someone to explain a regular, common, every day word, that tells me there has been some serious failings in education levels for longer a period that I initially thought.

Again, empty vessels making the most noise. Very common saying with a very clear meaning. I'm pretty sure you know exactly what that means.

The teachers you will find will not have a majority of support from most people in the private sector and nor a great deal within the public sector either. - many who have been and are, in far more precarious & dangerous roles who don't make so much fuss - they just get on with the job that they are paid to do.

Thankfully, we've evolved a little since the 70's.

[Kazanne]

I find it really annoying that teachers can strike without permission!! they penalise parents for taking kids out of school for holidays etc, but they can strike and leave the kids without education for their own benefit,selfish imo.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kazanne

I find it really annoying that teachers can strike without permission!! they penalise parents for taking kids out of school for holidays etc, but they can strike and leave the kids without education for their own benefit,selfish imo.

Good point, I can see all sides on this argument and one of my Cousins is a teacher,even she would say a strike,certainly of a days duration won't make any difference really.

Along with other professions..Teachers are seeing their pension plans hit and that's sad and also may even not be the wisest or right path to go down for the Govt,
Having said that, we all knew no real good economic news was coming for the next few years and I don't see what the professions see as the Govts alternative overall.The Govt has had to make some hard and very necessary economic decisions to protect everyone not just a few.

If the Teachers and Teaching Unions have better ideas and plans themselves then publicise them and keep doing so,the public would be far more likely to get behind them in that scenario than if they went on strike.

Strikes inconvenience everyone,especially from the teaching profession, it should be a valued profession by the Nation but it will do itself no good at all by striking and I cannot see this Govt altering course on this one either,not without a cast iron better plan that would work on the table anyway.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Good point, I can see all sides on this argument and one of my Cousins is a teacher,even she would say a strike,certainly of a days duration won't make any difference really.

Along with other professions..Teachers are seeing their pension plans hit and that's sad and also may even not be the wisest or right path to go down for the Govt,
Having said that, we all knew no real good economic news was coming for the next few years and I don't see what the professions see as the Govts alternative overall.The Govt has had to make some hard and very necessary economic decisions to protect everyone not just a few.

If the Teachers and Teaching Unions have better ideas and plans themselves then publicise them and keep doing so,the public would be far more likely to get behind them in that scenario than if they went on strike.

Strikes inconvenience everyone,especially from the teaching profession, it should be a valued profession by the Nation but it will do itself no good at all by striking and I cannot see this Govt altering course on this one either,not without a cast iron better plan that would work on the table anyway.

Totally agree Joey,in these times all of us have to pull together,teachers are valuable,but so are lots of other professions.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Good point, I can see all sides on this argument and one of my Cousins is a teacher,even she would say a strike,certainly of a days duration won't make any difference really.

Along with other professions..Teachers are seeing their pension plans hit and that's sad and also may even not be the wisest or right path to go down for the Govt,
Having said that, we all knew no real good economic news was coming for the next few years and I don't see what the professions see as the Govts alternative overall.The Govt has had to make some hard and very necessary economic decisions to protect everyone not just a few.

If the Teachers and Teaching Unions have better ideas and plans themselves then publicise them and keep doing so,the public would be far more likely to get behind them in that scenario than if they went on strike.

Strikes inconvenience everyone,especially from the teaching profession, it should be a valued profession by the Nation but it will do itself no good at all by striking and I cannot see this Govt altering course on this one either,not without a cast iron better plan that would work on the table anyway.

The part that gets me Joey is these are the very people who are teaching our children - yet seem unable to grasp and comprehend the simple fact that their government pension contributions are funded by the tax payer - which includes all of us 'non teaching staff' !!!

So single minded are they in their selfish greed for pension plans & contributions that vast amounts of people do not receive the same pension benefits - that they don't realise it's those same people who are paying for their contributions - but they are happy enough to put them all to great inconvenience. It's a joke!

That's the scary part....and these are the folk teaching the nations children. If they cannot grasp that the goverment does not have money trees and that there is a limit to what the government can do with all the monies they collect: What hope do we have!

These are the same teachers (not all of course) who allow kids to move onto secondary schools who cannot spell the most basic of words, know little regarding grammar and punctuation and often, cannot do simple arithmetic without the aid of calculators etc.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by kazanne

Totally agree Joey,in these times all of us have to pull together,teachers are valuable,but so are lots of other professions.

Yes, not least professions such as police men, military folk - who are forbidden to strike - and who in the case of police: would have their valuable services diverted from protecting the public - to having to stand watch over picket lines. So concerned these teachers in question are that they fail to understand the knock on effect of the costs that will be involved ..... all of course, which will come out of that bottomless pit of a purse that they foolishly believe the Government has.

Idiots.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by kizzy

Its a generalisation then to suggest striking people are militant...Maybe they feel that if enough people voice the same view it will make a difference?
Hmmmm, who mentioned miners?....haha

Better tell the government every child matters.....

Let me guess...Especially in child services they 'don't have any funding available'.....
Everywhere else it is not their department, and you get so frustrated you give up?

It is also a MASSIVE generalisation to think that everyone in the public service is hard done-by. The next time the paramedics are on strike lets hope one of you or yours don't need an ambulance. But if you do, and one doesn't come, you can take comfort that these heroes are, in your eyes, making a difference for themselves.

The government knows every child matters. You seriously think the government wants children to fail? Wants schools to fail? Did the last government want that too?

No...child services is a mess in almost every council I deal with. Their record-keeping is a mess, they take ages to answer the phone, ages to answer an email, agesto answer a letter... Have you seen what a senior social worker makes? Try getting one before 10am, or after 4pm, or on a Friday afternoon. In fact, try getting any sense out of ANY council before 10am, after 4pm or on a Friday afternoon. Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of giving up, which is why it's so frustrating. When I start a job I have to see it through to the end. Something that's quite alien to the public services.

And as far as funding goes... if they want to save some of their funding they should cut the waste. If the public services ran as efficiently as private business has to, they'd have loads more cash to spend on what matters.

The leader of my local council is paid three times what the MP is paid. Pin a medal on him, he's serving his country.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

Yes, not least professions such as police men, military folk - who are forbidden to strike - and who in the case of police: would have their valuable services diverted from protecting the public - to having to stand watch over picket lines. So concerned these teachers in question are that they fail to understand the knock on effect of the costs that will be involved ..... all of course, which will come out of that bottomless pit of a purse that they foolishly believe the Government has.

Idiots.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17537254

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by kizzy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17537254

care to actually comment on the very salient direct point I made in respect of the subject matter? rather than putting up a link for a strike which has in fact not been agreed upon?

I'll segment the part of my last comment that you appear to have skimmed over and ignored.

......and who in the case of police: would have their valuable services diverted from protecting the public - to having to stand watch over picket lines. So concerned these teachers in question are that they fail to understand the knock on effect of the costs that will be involved ..... all of course, which will come out of that bottomless pit of a purse that they foolishly believe the Government has.

[arista]

"Strikes inconvenience everyone,especially from the teaching profession, it should be a valued profession by the Nation but it will do itself no good at all by striking and I cannot see this Govt altering course on this one either,not without a cast iron better plan that would work on the table anyway. "


Yes Joey
Kizzy is a militant

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

Nope I don't believe you have offered up anything that has real value for you to substantiate your belief in what can be achieved by a one day strike- as you yourself said below that you had no clue what would realistically be achieved by a one day strike.

That means you are supporting them but have no real grounds for making that choice to support them, as you stated yourself, you have no clue what difference it would make.



You will find that this impacts upon the private sector very much - many parents of whom work in the private sector - parents of said students who will have to find some way to work around such pathetic actions by some teachers who appear to have no real sense of how fortunate they are this particular time. Any public servant (who are paid for their services from the public tax payers money) who chose strike action: do have a right for it to be questioned by all others in the UK who contribute financially to the fiscal purse. therefore it does indeed have much to do with the private sector - who are also UK citizens and have a right to reply.




If you need someone to be explain a regular, common, every day word, that tells me there has been some serious failings in education levels for longer a period that I initially thought.

Again, empty vessels making the most noise. Very common saying with a very clear meaning. I'm pretty sure you know exactly what that means.

The teachers you will find will not have a majority of support from most people in the private sector and nor a great deal within the public sector either. - many who have been and are, in far more precarious & dangerous roles who don't make so much fuss - they just get on with the job that they are paid to do.

Thankfully, we've evolved a little since the 70's.

I am not privvy to the thoughts and feelings of those teachers striking....They have their reasons for the timescale of the strike,I have attempted to bring them to your attention by posting the news items relating to the issue. Im not sure what else I can do .

I can empathise with them as I can see where they have a grievance, I support them on those grounds.

They are 'fortunate'? To be fair they have trained very hard and for many years to a standard the government has set to fill this role. To label them 'militant' is unfair.
In this economic climate is it right to expect anyone to effectively take a cut in wages?
As I said strike action is a last resort. It will affect me too but I can fully understand why they may feel it is necessary, due to failures in negotiation.

It's your reason for using the word to be honest i'm not sure about....

It's not really.... and why you have applied that saying to hundreds of well educated people who individually may not feel they have a voice but as part of a union do I don't know....

I disagree, I know many people who are 100% behind teachers and indeed all of the public services in the UK.

We don't seem to be getting anywhere here either, but it has been good to hear of opposing views to my own and I respect your opinion. Looks like we will never see eye to eye on this topic

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

It is also a MASSIVE generalisation to think that everyone in the public service is hard done-by. The next time the paramedics are on strike lets hope one of you or yours don't need an ambulance. But if you do, and one doesn't come, you can take comfort that these heroes are, in your eyes, making a difference for themselves.

The government knows every child matters. You seriously think the government wants children to fail? Wants schools to fail? Did the last government want that too?

No...child services is a mess in almost every council I deal with. Their record-keeping is a mess, they take ages to answer the phone, ages to answer an email, agesto answer a letter... Have you seen what a senior social worker makes? Try getting one before 10am, or after 4pm, or on a Friday afternoon. In fact, try getting any sense out of ANY council before 10am, after 4pm or on a Friday afternoon. Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of giving up, which is why it's so frustrating. When I start a job I have to see it through to the end. Something that's quite alien to the public services.

And as far as funding goes... if they want to save some of their funding they should cut the waste. If the public services ran as efficiently as private business has to, they'd have loads more cash to spend on what matters.

The leader of my local council is paid three times what the MP is paid. Pin a medal on him, he's serving his country.

Thats unfair the RCN voted not to strike last time so no lives were ever in jeopardy. And first responders were not involved either...

They are failing....And they are blaming the teachers rather than themselves.

Yes, as child services is seriously underfunded...

What do you consider waste?....

I thought the councils were streamlining? With the abolition of police authorities there will be no need for as many councillors so I'm guessing their days are numbered.

We don't need as many MP's either tbh... Or mayors....

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by kizzy

I am not privvy to the thoughts and feelings of those teachers striking....They have their reasons for the timescale of the strike,I have attempted to bring them to your attention by posting the news items relating to the issue. Im not sure what else I can do .

I can empathise with them as I can see where they have a grievance, I support them on those grounds.

They are 'fortunate'? To be fair they have trained very hard and for many years to a standard the government has set to fill this role. To label them 'militant' is unfair.
In this economic climate is it right to expect anyone to effectively take a cut in wages?
As I said strike action is a last resort. It will affect me too but I can fully understand why they may feel it is necessary, due to failures in negotiation.

It's your reason for using the word to be honest i'm not sure about....

It's not really.... and why you have applied that saying to hundreds of well educated people who individually may not feel they have a voice but as part of a union do I don't know....

I disagree, I know many people who are 100% behind teachers and indeed all of the public services in the UK.

We don't seem to be getting anywhere here either, but it has been good to hear of opposing views to my own and I respect your opinion. Looks like we will never see eye to eye on this topic

If you aren't privy to the teachers' thoughts - the ones that you are supporting - how can you possibly back and support them when you don't know the real reasons behind it, when you are unable to quantify what the goals are, how liable they are to be reached, and the actual real impact on them achieving what they are demanding. Or are you happy in being led blindly by the parts of what is being regurgitated through the media from Unions and their little sheep followers who pay their union fees every month: but when the push comes to the shove and they need their Union for personal matters - they Unions tend to be a waste of time.

I also trained for many years to be in my profession - and the qualifications I actually have: allow me to teach if that was my choice. That took the form of both Uni qualifications and on the job training.

I'm in charge of a budget of £1m per annum and I can tell you now: some teachers get far more salary (and pension plan) than I do. These same teachers that often teach arithmetic / maths to appallingly low levels at times. Spare me the bleeding heart stuff please.

In this economic climate - one of the unions, NUT I think it was, revealed that the monthly wage cut which will show in wage packets next month is an average of £30 per month - they also quoted that it was the first time since 1930 , that public sectors had to take a 'cut' in salary. First since 1930 !!!!

Conversely: I had to take a cut by £4k per annum. I work at least 45hrs per week - more often than not, far more - I am paid for 40 hours. Does it piss me off? Sure it does at times - but I'm also taking home a healthy salary in comparison to many around me and for that I am thankful. I'm also aware that salaries are on the decrease on the job market - plus I enjoy the challenge of my work - regardless - it's how you focus on getting over the hurdles..... not how loud you bleat about them. It's about growing backbones and being made of sterner stuff - and not wimping out - that's it how I see it: it's a bunch of wimps moaning about nothing in reality - given the grand economic scale. We are all suffering: and someone, someone moaning about a pension contribution of £360 less going into their pension pot a year - compared to £4k net salary per year - they don't deserve any sympathy never mind empathy! Not a chance.

Starting to sink in yet - because of the economic crisis currently - private sector doesn't have the luxury of someone handing wads on money out to those who come from a 'grab, grab, take, take but offer little back'. That is what is coming over loud and clear.

We aren't going to agree - that I agree on.

Is your own line of work in the teaching profession Kizzy - or in public service?

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by kizzy

Thats unfair the RCN voted not to strike last time so no lives were ever in jeopardy. And first responders were not involved either...

They are failing....And they are blaming the teachers rather than themselves.

Yes, as child services is seriously underfunded...

What do you consider waste?....

I thought the councils were streamlining? With the abolition of police authorities there will be no need for as many councillors so I'm guessing their days are numbered.

We don't need as many MP's either tbh... Or mayors....

Waste? How about the amount of reems of paper that's taken home?

Endless hours spent on personal phone calls.

Replacing equipment such as pcs/ printers etc when they are not needed.

Replacing laserjet toner catridges the very second the 'low ink levels' appear - these things cost a few hundred quid each for good colour one: when a good shake on the catridge will see out easily a few hundred more copies.

Bunking off early. Coming in late.

People sitting around blethering all day.

People being told to 'not work as fast as you're showing everyone up' plus it means if we get through the work, we won't get overtime at the weekend.

Overtime; sunday - hours? 11am - 2pm but everyone told to claim from 10am to 4pm.

Expensive buffets being bought in for unnecessary meeting that lasted an hour at most - for inhouse staff.

I could go on Kizzy but that's just the tip of the iceberg - and as I say: so sickened I was by it: I left the civil service/ public sector (despite loving my job - the whole attitude was deplorable)

You add that type of thing up - in the vast majority of public sector departments, in every buidling, in every town, every county - it would pay for their £30 less contributions thousands of times over.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

care to actually comment on the very salient direct point I made in respect of the subject matter? rather than putting up a link for a strike which has in fact not been agreed upon?

I'll segment the part of my last comment that you appear to have skimmed over and ignored.

Sorry, heres my take...The police have got sick to death of defending the government stance.
Thier own jobs and future are now hanging in the balance just like everyone elses...And what do you do when you are backed into a corner?....Come out fighting.
Every damn day they put their lives on the line to protect the public.. Only to get at best undervalued and at worst ridiculed!

The views of some towards those in public services is disgusting. They should be supported for the work they do in our communities and in society as a whole not berrated.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by arista

"Strikes inconvenience everyone,especially from the teaching profession, it should be a valued profession by the Nation but it will do itself no good at all by striking and I cannot see this Govt altering course on this one either,not without a cast iron better plan that would work on the table anyway. "


Yes Joey
Kizzy is a militant

Please don't start name calling, it's rude .....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

If you aren't privy to the teachers' thoughts - the ones that you are supporting - how can you possibly back and support them when you don't know the real reasons behind it, when you are unable to quantify what the goals are, how liable they are to be reached, and the actual real impact on them achieving what they are demanding. Or are you happy in being led blindly by the parts of what is being regurgitated through the media from Unions and their little sheep followers who pay their union fees every month: but when the push comes to the shove and they need their Union for personal matters - they Unions tend to be a waste of time.

I also trained for many years to be in my profession - and the qualifications I actually have: allow me to teach if that was my choice. That took the form of both Uni qualifications and on the job training.

I'm in charge of a budget of £1m per annum and I can tell you now: some teachers get far more salary (and pension plan) than I do. These same teachers that often teach arithmetic / maths to appallingly low levels at times. Spare me the bleeding heart stuff please.

In this economic climate - one of the unions, NUT I think it was, revealed that the monthly wage cut which will show in wage packets next month is an average of £30 per month - they also quoted that it was the first time since 1930 , that public sectors had to take a 'cut' in salary. First since 1930 !!!!

Conversely: I had to take a cut by £4k per annum. I work at least 45hrs per week - more often than not, far more - I am paid for 40 hours. Does it piss me off? Sure it does at times - but I'm also taking home a healthy salary in comparison to many around me and for that I am thankful. I'm also aware that salaries are on the decrease on the job market - plus I enjoy the challenge of my work - regardless - it's how you focus on getting over the hurdles..... not how loud you bleat about them. It's about growing backbones and being made of sterner stuff - and not wimping out - that's it how I see it: it's a bunch of wimps moaning about nothing in reality - given the grand economic scale. We are all suffering: and someone, someone moaning about a pension contribution of £360 less going into their pension pot a year - compared to £4k net salary per year - they don't deserve any sympathy never mind empathy! Not a chance.

Starting to sink in yet - because of the economic crisis currently - private sector doesn't have the luxury of someone handing wads on money out to those who come from a 'grab, grab, take, take but offer little back'. That is what is coming over loud and clear.

We aren't going to agree - that I agree on.

Is your own line of work in the teaching profession Kizzy - or in public service?

I know the reasons...I have quoted them many times...And they are apparent in the news items contained in the links I provided.
I do not however know their individual thoughts and feelings...Im not mystic meg lol.

I am not being led blindly...Don't worry I have formed my opinion very carefully thankyou.

Good for you, my heart is not bleeding...You made your career choice. Trying to discredit teachers by suggesting you could do a better job is ridiculous.

Have teaching standards, training, workloadpressures in the profession changed since the 30's ....yes they have.
How can you expect a teacher with a family of their own to take a cut of £30 a month?...Its unbelievable.

I watched the budget...and saw the tax rate fall for the top earners...and business tax fall too...I'm bleating at that Im sure many in public services are.
The rich get richer and those who look after the countries kids, and the 999 services get kicked in the nads!


When will it sink in that the se cost cutting exercises are detrimental to this country?

If that is how you feel about those in public service in the UK today I feel very sorry for you. And I feel you are very out of touch in your responses.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

Waste? How about the amount of reems of paper that's taken home?

Endless hours spent on personal phone calls.

Replacing equipment such as pcs/ printers etc when they are not needed.

Replacing laserjet toner catridges the very second the 'low ink levels' appear - these things cost a few hundred quid each for good colour one: when a good shake on the catridge will see out easily a few hundred more copies.

Bunking off early. Coming in late.

People sitting around blethering all day.

People being told to 'not work as fast as you're showing everyone up' plus it means if we get through the work, we won't get overtime at the weekend.

Overtime; sunday - hours? 11am - 2pm but everyone told to claim from 10am to 4pm.

Expensive buffets being bought in for unnecessary meeting that lasted an hour at most - for inhouse staff.

I could go on Kizzy but that's just the tip of the iceberg - and as I say: so sickened I was by it: I left the civil service/ public sector (despite loving my job - the whole attitude was deplorable)

You add that type of thing up - in the vast majority of public sector departments, in every buidling, in every town, every county - it would pay for their £30 less contributions thousands of times over.

What has this to do with teachers?...

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by kizzy

What do you consider waste?....

Originally Posted by kizzy

What has this to do with teachers?...

You were the one who asked the question ........ I answered it.

The link and the correlation as to where the wasted monies go as far government workers is concerned - many of which I listed - will indeed apply to teachers too....... it really does seem that you are unable to contemplate the bigger picture and anything that remotely impacts directly on government monies - which come from the taxpayers - that keep those in goverment employ, employed!

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by kizzy

Sorry, heres my take...The police have got sick to death of defending the government stance.
Thier own jobs and future are now hanging in the balance just like everyone elses...And what do you do when you are backed into a corner?....Come out fighting.
Every damn day they put their lives on the line to protect the public.. Only to get at best undervalued and at worst ridiculed!

The views of some towards those in public services is disgusting. They should be supported for the work they do in our communities and in society as a whole not berrated.

What has any of that to do with the teachers wanting to strike for pensions? The obvious point is that funds will have to be diverted by other government employees - policemen - who will be expected to monitor and be in situ at picket lines.... ie; another prime example of a waste of money - brought about by teachers moaning that their pension contributions are being lowered.

Seriously Kizzy... I can't help but feel you are completely and utterly blinkered without being able to see past this tunnel vision approach of "I support them, not sure why really and I don't comprehend the impact outwith that tiny little window".