[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

the poor working class are paying more proportionately in tax than the rich but its not enough to keep the services running. throwin the lack of accountability from staff in the nhs and you have a enormous problem that is frankly horrifying

How does this relate to my post?

[Kizzy]

He'll outsource the NHS... Nuff said.

He's attempting to appeal to your atypical bish bosh essex man, and Jerusalem warbling middle English.

I'm not fooled.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

He'll outsource the NHS... Nuff said.

He's attempting to appeal to your atypical bish bosh essex man, and Jerusalem warbling middle English.

I'm not fooled.

No? But you're a staunch Labour supporter? I will compose a nice long POST containing nothing but irrefutable facts about how successive Labour Governments have continually 'fooled' their supporters as well as the rest of the country - I know, I was once a staunch Labour Supporter myself.

Second guessing with such finality just what Farage might do in the future, whilst ignoring all the deceitful 'U turning' and breeching of promises that Labour have already HISTORICALLY done is laughable. Nuff said.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

No? But you're a staunch Labour supporter? I will compose a nice long POST containing nothing but irrefutable facts about how successive Labour Governments have continually 'fooled' their supporters as well as the rest of the country - I know, I was once a staunch Labour Supporter myself.

Second guessing with such finality just what Farage might do in the future, whilst ignoring all the deceitful 'U turning' and breeching of promises that Labour have already HISTORICALLY done is laughable. Nuff said.

I think all govts; have to do u turns at times, I actually think in govt; Labour does most of what it sets out to do and obviously will fail to on other things,
Labour for instance, rarely enjoyed the comfortable majorities the Conservative party got to be fair.

Since 1945 up to 1997, over half a century,Labour only ever got 2 comfortable working majorities in elections,whereas the Conservatives had 8.
That is bound to cause difficulties especially in a hostile house of commons.
Tony Blair's Labour govts; were in fact just mild Conservative ones really, very little was evident of wha Labours values were got included in those terms of office.
At least Ed Miliband has returned in part to more Labour values.

I don't object to u turns if they are necessary and have compassion and fairness at the heart of them.
Such as the Conservatives u turn on the poll tax.

Blatant lies are a different thing and misleading the voters intentionally,things this coalitionhas done, Cameron with the NHS, the Lib Dems with tuition fees.
those 2 things,trebling the fees and a top down re-organisation fo the NHS were not in either coalition parties manifesto.
For me they abused power even doing them.

That annoys me more than the odd u turn or need for some crisis management as to policy for a short time.
In fact I think any govt; that breaks its trust with the voters on the 2 issues,in the way they did that I mention above, deserve to pay very heavily indeed for that misleading of the voters and the blatant lying behind them too.

I nver thought I would see the day I was happy to say I was a Labour supporter but by all powers that be, I am now and this lot I am glad to say, I could nver support for those betrayals and lies.
They were betrayals and lies that were unnecessary but they did them anyway and the speed with which they enacted those policies too once in power, showed clearly, that was a 'hidden' agenda.

[bots]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I think all govts; have to do u turns at times, I actually think in govt; Labour does most of what it sets out to do and obviously will fail to on other things,
Labour for instance, rarely enjoyed the comfortable majorities the Conservative party got to be fair.

Since 1945 up to 1997, over half a century,Labour only ever got 2 comfortable working majorities in elections,whereas the Conservatives had 8.
That is bound to cause difficulties especially in a hostile house of commons.
Tony Blair's Labour govts; were in fact just mild Conservative ones really, very little was evident of wha Labours values were got included in those terms of office.
At least Ed Miliband has returned in part to more Labour values.

I don't object to u turns if they are necessary and have compassion and fairness at the heart of them.
Such as the Conservatives u turn on the poll tax.

Blatant lies are a different thing and misleading the voters intentionally,things this coalitionhas done, Cameron with the NHS, the Lib Dems with tuition fees.
those 2 things,trebling the fees and a top down re-organisation fo the NHS were not in either coalition parties manifesto.
For me they abused power even doing them.

That annoys me more than the odd u turn or need for some crisis management as to policy for a short time.
In fact I think any govt; that breaks its trust with the voters on the 2 issues,in the way they did that I mention above, deserve to pay very heavily indeed for that misleading of the voters and the blatant lying behind them too.

I nver thought I would see the day I was happy to say I was a Labour supporter but by all powers that be, I am now and this lot I am glad to say, I could nver support for those betrayals and lies.
They were betrayals and lies that were unnecessary but they did them anyway and the speed with which they enacted those policies too once in power, showed clearly, that was a 'hidden' agenda.

I think you need to be careful about saying governments did U turns etc. Those in opposition make a commitment based on the information they are aware of at the time. The current government were left a far bigger mess to clean up than anyone at the time realised. This obviously forced some re-thinking and adapting of policies. Would you rather a government continued with its head in the sand rather than learning and adapting? I know which I prefer.

We vote for a party because we trust them to do the right thing - if we don't trust them, they shouldn't get our vote - simple. No political party would have come out looking good after the last 4 years. They simply have not had enough room to offer people what the need/want to feel comfortable and secure again. The fact that the Conservatives are still in with a healthy chance of winning the next election is an amazing achievement in my opinion.

[empire]

In this country the left wing dictatorship, will censor your words or views that don't fit their Ideology, if you say the wrong joke, the over sensitive police will throw you in prison, liberalism is anti democratic as any other ideology out there, nigel farage and his party say what they think and tell their views that people on the street are to scared to say, him and his party are attacked, in every way for it, we have had eighteen years of this, and it has to stop some where in the end, I think it is silly that some people will compare ukip to the norse fire party,

[joeysteele]

With the fullest respect Kirklancaster,and I praise your efforts on this at least.
They are words on paper, there is a lot of missed detail that can be behind all those fine words.
With the inconsistencies regularly portrayed by Nigel Farage and then the complete reversal as to what he has said at times, by candidates for UKIP.
I am left wondering why all that on paper, with a line or 2 at best of information, begs a lot of questioning as to the 'hidden' detail and also 'meaning'.

Words can be saying different things despite being laid out in a similar way,positive wording on the surface, once put into practice,can be revealed as in fact being very negative.
Just as vice versa, negative things on paper, can in practice become more positive in action.

Nothing I read there, alters my suspicions of a hidden agenda as to the NHS, while obviously there is a lot,on that small line or 2 against each idea/policy,the expansion of it all with greater detail, could be saying a lot of very different things in reality.
A lot of that does not in any way go hand in hand with things Nigel Farage says, 'off the cuff' so to speak.
I commend you on the posting of it but it actually reveals little that explains in full, what is actually meant in truth as to the policies.

I would never vote UKIP myself, because I do not want to leave the EU, I consider that very dangerous indeed for the UK and I don't particularly want a referendum either.

Reading through all that and even trying to imagine it as positive,leaves me thinking of the chaos in reforming just about everything in the UK as set out in that list you posted.
It is probably a pipedream sadly in my view.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

With the fullest respect Kirklancaster, they are words on paper, there is a lot of missed detail that can be behind all those fine words.
With the inconsistencies regularly portrayed by Nigel Farage and then the complete reversal as to what he has said at times, by candidates for UKIP.
While all that on paper, with a line or 2 at best of informations, begs a lot of questioning as to the 'hidden' detail and also 'meaning'.

Words can be saying different things despite being laid out in a similar way,positive wording on the surface, once put into practice,can be revealed as in fact being very negative.
Just as vice versa, negative things on paper, can in practice become more positive in action.

Nothing I read there, alters my suspicions of a hidden agenda as to the NHS, while obviously there is a lot,on that small line or 2 against each idea/policy,the expansion of it all with greater detail, could be saying a lot of very different things in reality.
A lot of tha does not in any way go hand in hand with things Nigel Farage says, 'off the cuff' so to speak.
I commend you on the posting of it but it actually reveals little that explains in full, wha is meant in truth as to the policies.

I would never vote UKIP myself, because I do not want to leave the EU, I consider that very dangerous indeed for the UK and I don't particularly want a referendum either.

Reading through all that and trying to imagine it as positive,levaes me thinking of the chaos in reforming just about everything in the UK as set out in that list you posted.
It is probably a pipedream sadly in my view.

I always respect your view Joey, but I feel that most of the points you raise as to what Farage might do by way of 'U Turns' or 'breeched promises' is but speculation, whilst with Labour and the Conservatives, it is historical fact - and on a regular basis.

I feel Farage should at least be given a chance - he just might make a better fist of actually pulling this country out of the mire than the other two parties. Let's be honest - he can hardly be worse.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I always respect your view Joey, but I feel that most of the points you raise as to what Farage might do by way of 'U Turns' or 'breeched promises' is but speculation, whilst with Labour and the Conservatives, it is historical fact - and on a regular basis.

I feel Farage should at least be given a chance - he just might make a better fist of actually pulling this country out of the mire than the other two parties. Let's be honest - he can hardly be worse.

That is becasue they have been in govt; he hasn't, that is the only way you can do that really as to Labour and Conservative govts; because they have been in govt; and had to do u turns on some things.

I would despair if Farage was given the chance,I don't trust him and don't like UKIPs policies, what I know fo them, even all you listed above.
Too many questions, not answered, not enough detail, most things blurred and no way of clearing the waters as you get conflicting explanations from whoever is representing UKIP at the time.

Not for me, I hope UKIP and Nigel Farage have not a thing at all to do with govt; at all after May 7th.
For me that is a risk too dangerous to take.

[Kizzy]

This thread is about UKIP remember?...

Every leader of every party deserves to be judged on their merits, I see no merit in farage and I'm doubly sure there is no merit in cameron or clegg.
In real terms that leaves me with one option.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

This thread is about UKIP remember?...

Every leader of every party deserves to be judged on their merits, I see no merit in farage and I'm doubly sure there is no merit in cameron or clegg.
In real terms that leaves me with one option.

not voting?

I'm not a fan of any of them, when forced with that dilemma, I revert to voting for the person I most like at a local level, irrespective of political party.

Nigel has said some interesting things, he has opened up issues for debate that shouldn't just be swept under the carpet, because that will just make it worse in the end.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

not voting?

I'm not a fan of any of them, when forced with that dilemma, I revert to voting for the person I most like at a local level, irrespective of political party.

Nigel has said some interesting things, he has opened up issues for debate that shouldn't just be swept under the carpet, because that will just make it worse in the end.

Waste my vote?... no, I wouldn't do that.

That sounds a little self serving, but local issues are important too and if your MP works hard for your community then I can't argue with your logic.

Nigel is a city trader, businessman and banker... this is a business deal, a lucrative investment. He's looking at the rich picking and whats for sale and thinking 'I'm having some of that'!
The only draw is money, nothing else.

[Kizzy]

Without the NHS trust me...it will be worse.

[Northern Monkey]

At the end of the day,All this panic is for nothing because UKIP will not win an election.It will always be blue vs red in this country with a minor party possibly in coalition and i can't see Ukip ever being that minor party.
UKIP are actually engaging alot of people in politics who were either disinterested or did'nt vote because they are sick of the same old crap from Labour and the Tories.
UKIP have finally given us another option and Lab/Con members and some voters are panicking,However UKIP will never get into power and this country will continue with the same awful two parties(with possible coalitions)who have made it the sad state it is today.UKIP have atleast shaken up the main two parties and made them address issues that they would otherwise have ignored.
However,Not agreeing with the policies of a party does not give anybody the right to try and silence them or attack its members.That is not democracy that is just thuggery.If you don't agree with UKIP then don't vote for them.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

At the end of the day,All this panic is for nothing because UKIP will not win an election.It will always be blue vs red in this country with a minor party possibly in coalition and i can't see Ukip ever being that minor party.
UKIP are actually engaging alot of people in politics who were either disinterested or did'nt vote because they are sick of the same old crap from Labour and the Tories.
UKIP have finally given us another option and Lab/Con members and some voters are panicking,However UKIP will never get into power and this country will continue with the same awful two parties(with possible coalitions)who have made it the sad state it is today.UKIP have atleast shaken up the main two parties and made them address issues that they would otherwise have ignored.
However,Not agreeing with the policies of a party does not give anybody the right to try and silence them or attack its members.That is not democracy that is just thuggery.If you don't agree with UKIP then don't vote for them.

Well said Paul - as usual.

[Kizzy]

Ok lets look at things in a bit more detail, where here is any reference to the workforce, or the rights and protections for workers?

What are their views on the living wage?
where do they stand on 0hr contracts?
What is their plan for youth unemployment?


Employment and Small Businesses

– Businesses should be able to discriminate in favour of young British workers.
– Repeal the Agency Workers Directive.
– Conduct a skills review to better inform our education system and qualifications
– Encourage councils to provide more free parking for the high street.
– Simplify planning regulations and licences for empty commercial property vacant for over a year.*
– Extend the right of appeal for micro businesses against HMRC action.

This says not very much to me about the issues surrounding employment in the UK.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Ok lets look at things in a bit more detail, where here is any reference to the workforce, or the rights and protections for workers?

What are their views on the living wage?
where do they stand on 0hr contracts?
What is their plan for youth unemployment?


Employment and Small Businesses

– Businesses should be able to discriminate in favour of young British workers.
– Repeal the Agency Workers Directive.
– Conduct a skills review to better inform our education system and qualifications
– Encourage councils to provide more free parking for the high street.
– Simplify planning regulations and licences for empty commercial property vacant for over a year.*
– Extend the right of appeal for micro businesses against HMRC action.

This says not very much to me about the issues surrounding employment in the UK.

It's a summary not a draft of 'War and Peace'.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

It's a summary not a draft of 'War and Peace'.

Yes... A summary outlines the key issues, if these are the key issues then the document is worthless as there is nothing on there that will be of any benefit to the residents, workforce or communities of the UK.

To save you replying I'll just presume you don't want to address my points rather than you repeat the 'war and peace' quote.

[Kizzy]

Housing and planning

– UKIP will protect the Green Belt.*
– Planning rules in the NPPF will be changed to make it easier to build on brownfield sites instead of greenfield sites.* Central government is to list the nationally available brownfield sites for development and issue low-interest bonds to enable decontamination.
– Houses on brownfield sites will be exempt from Stamp Duty on first sale and VAT relaxed for redevelopment of brownfield sites.
– Planning Permission for large-scale developments can be overturned by a*referendum triggered by the signatures of 5% of the District or Borough electors collected within three months.

So they will essentially do zip to ease the housing crisis except allow people to live in contaminated areas?
Planning can be halted with a petition from 5% of the current residents, is this to be called the 'not on my doorstep' directive?

Where are their plans to build affordable housing?
Where are their plans to aid local authorities to bring their current housing stock up to the decent homes standard?
Where are their promises to not allow overseas investors to buy housing association properties and oust whole communities?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Housing and planning

– UKIP will protect the Green Belt.*
– Planning rules in the NPPF will be changed to make it easier to build on brownfield sites instead of greenfield sites.* Central government is to list the nationally available brownfield sites for development and issue low-interest bonds to enable decontamination.
– Houses on brownfield sites will be exempt from Stamp Duty on first sale and VAT relaxed for redevelopment of brownfield sites.
– Planning Permission for large-scale developments can be overturned by a*referendum triggered by the signatures of 5% of the District or Borough electors collected within three months.

So they will essentially do zip to ease the housing crisis except allow people to live in contaminated areas?
Planning can be halted with a petition from 5% of the current residents, is this to be called the 'not on my doorstep' directive?

Where are their plans to build affordable housing?
Where are their plans to aid local authorities to bring their current housing stock up to the decent homes standard?
Where are their promises to not allow overseas investors to buy housing association properties and oust whole communities?

It's a summary not a draft of 'War and Peace'.

[Kizzy]

Protecting jobs and increasing prosperity
- We would review all legislation and regulations from the EU (3,600 new laws since 2010) and remove those which hamper British prosperity and competitiveness.
– We would negotiate a bespoke trade agreement with the EU to enable our businesses to continue trading to mutual advantage.*
– UKIP would not seek to remain in the European Free Trade Area (EFTA) or European Economic Area (EEA) while those treaties maintain a principle of free movement of labour, which prevents the UK managing its own borders.
– We would reoccupy the UK’s vacant seat at the World Trade Organisation, ensuring that we continue to enjoy ‘most favoured nation’ status in trade with the EU, as is required under WTO rules.

This is the most baffling, why would anyone want to be out of the EU so bad?

It's said as there is movement of workers then fee trade with the EU is unworkable, currently there are around 2 million British living and working in the EU this change would effectively render them illegal immigrants.

Taking a seat in the WTO however is perfectly acceptable, would that be possible without amending some of our current legislation on freedom of movement with the the nations within the WTO?

[Livia]

UKIP's manifesto on which they'll fight the election isn't released until after Easter.

[Kizzy]

Well, that's a bit rubbish... I demand to know what they intend to do about high street parking right now!

http://b.3cdn.net/labouruk/89012f856..._phm6bflfq.pdf

[Livia]

I thought this thread was about Farage's family being assaulted by a pack of baying knuckle-draggers claiming to be protesters? I don't think any UKIP policy would make it okay for his family to be attacked.

[Kizzy]

Sometimes discussions get expanded on.