[Crimson Dynamo]

it is not just as innocent a situation as it seems. there are some gullible westerners on the boats

[Claymores]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

it is not just as innocent a situation as it seems. there are some gullible westerners on the boats

A holocaust survivor was coming in with the humaitarian aid - MOSAD/Isreali commandos still decided to shoot their way in, in international waters

[Shasown]

If Israel didnt have an internationally condemned blockade of the Gaza strip which is in effect slowly starving the Palestinians there would be no need for International Aid to be sent into the area.

The UN have asked Israel to lift the blockade, Israel refused.
The UN states that the aid Israel allows into Gaza is actually less than 1/4 needed to stop the people living there from starving, Israel says tough.
The UN also accepts that Israel has in the past taken over areas already ceded to the Palestinians in previous peace treaties. Israel doesnt care. That is the reason Hamas is still active.

Conclusion Israel intends to starve the people living in Gaza either into extinction or until they force them to leave the area totally. Isnt that genocide and as such a crime against humanity.

We have blockade runners taking in food and building supplies. Israel mounts an operation to seize control of the vessels being used, on the high seas. An act of piracy, pure and simple. Article 51 of the UN charter does not give them the right to mount operations such as these until the vessels are within Israeli territorial waters.

The people on the ships although intending to break a blockade hadnt done so nor were they in Israeli waters, They have a right to defend themselves against the commandos, who were attempting to take control of the vessel illegally.

Now lets look at the Israeli operation, they used special forces to assault ships but failed big time, in order to establish a foothold on any enemy territory the initial assault needs to be fast and of sufficient scale to establish a safe area from which you can build up sufficient forces to a level where you can break out and gain control of the vital areas(key points) of the vessel namely the control room(bridge) and engine room. Or as they hoped a small team in fast to seize the bridge, however it would have to be a very co ordinated assault. The Israeli operation wasnt.

Once the troops who were to all extents special forces got bogged down in their assault they should have used non lethal means to defend themselves till there was sufficient numbers to regain the initiative in their assault. They are trained in unarmed combat and they do have access to non lethal weapons. They didnt, they started to open fire, this indicates either poorly disciplined troops or a badly led operation. The second indication is my guess.

What should happen is the International community should break the blockade supervised by the UN. Israel agreed to the setting up of the Palestinian enclaves, they should stand by that agreement. They havent.

The UN should once again send in peacekeeping forces to ensure that both sides observe a ceasefire. If Israel disagrees to that then sanctions should be enforced against Israel.

That wont happen because America supports Israel and needs its friendship.

The Israelis will wait out the international uproar and continue to do what they want. The slow starvation and destruction of the Palestinian communities. They always have and they always will do.

[Claymores]

Wise words shas - USA will always support whatever crimes the Isrealis commit - UN have passed many resolutions against them but never enforce as we're under the influence of the only superpowe who could actually take action.r

[setanta]

Yeah, that sounds logical. They ballsed up an illegal operation.

[Sticks]

Gaza, under Hamas is a terrorist state aimed at the complete annihilation and elimination of Israel

Under article 51 of the UN charter Israel is entitled to do what ever it takes and use all means to defend it's people.

It has the right to blockade Gaza and restrict supplies to prevent attacks on it's people. Israel has the right to take military action against those supporters of terrorism that were in those ships up to and including deadly force.

That is international law.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Sticks

Gaza, under Hamas is a terrorist state aimed at the complete annihilation and elimination of Israel

And Israel has proved it is dedicated to the destruction of all Palestinians regardless of whether they support Hamas or not.

Originally Posted by Sticks

Under article 51 of the UN charter Israel is entitled to do what ever it takes and use all means to defend it's people.

No it must comply with the Geneva Convention, The Law of Armed Conflcit, UN Security Councils and other UN Resolutions also a whole host of other UN articles which take precedence over Article 51.

Originally Posted by Sticks

It has the right to blockade Gaza and restrict supplies to prevent attacks on it's people. Israel has the right to take military action against those supporters of terrorism that were in those ships up to and including deadly force.

That is international law.

Yes but under other UN Articles which are more binding and take higher priority it has the obligations to ensure non combatants do not suffer unnecessarily whilst it conducts military operations against a designated enemy.

It does not have the right to decide arbitrarily what it will and wont allow into Gaza even though the UN has in the past given a complete list of Foodstuffs, Water and water filtration systems, blankets, shelters, building materials etc that must be allowed in.

It does not have the right to starve the Palestinian people into either submission nor extinction.

Lets face it Israel doesnt care about Internation Law, Human Rights, etc and it doesnt listen to either the UN or the International Community at large.

[setanta]

USA and Turkey are condemning the attacks too. Israel are losing allies fast. Not sure if it'll make any difference to their embargo though.

[Shasown]

They assaulted ships on the high seas outside of their territorial waters without legal intent, to take command without consent of the owners of said ships that makes them pirates.

They resorted to the use of lethal force in pursuit of this aim, even though they were also equipped with non lethal weapons. By using lethal force to obtain an illegal aim, that makes them murderers.

They may have been under the illusion they were operating within the law, they may have thought the activists on the vessels would simply surrender, that doesnt matter.

Same as if a burglar broke into your house armed with a knife and gun, threatened you with the knife you fought back and he then shot you dead, in the UK they would start with a murder charge.

If they had waited until the boats had actually crossed into their territory, same action same result, a lot less criticism.

The Israelis simply wanted to ensure their illegal blockade wasnt broken, full stop.

What part are you still having difficulty understanding, EL?

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by Shasown

They assaulted ships on the high seas outside of their territorial waters without legal intent, to take command without consent of the owners of said ships that makes them pirates.

No it doesn't.
IF they believed there was an incoming terrorist threat and believing it was aimed at its country then you bet they can go stop them.

They resorted to the use of lethal force in pursuit of this aim, even though they were also equipped with non lethal weapons. By using lethal force to obtain an illegal aim, that makes them murderers.

No it does not.
You are such a phony because there is NO WAY you would be saying this in any other scenario.
First I'm genuinely shocked those 2 Israelis survived after seeing the horrific metal bar destruction,
and,
there is no doubt about this whatsoever - when you have microsecond and every single blow coming down is a 'death blow' you must immediately STOP the attacker.
You DO NOT do anything else.

IF you saw this EXACT scenario happening in downtown London you would NEVER say they ought to have resorted to tasers or rubber bullets and YOU would actually criticise them for taking TOO LONG to stop the raining death blows.

They may have been under the illusion they were operating within the law, they may have thought the activists on the vessels would simply surrender, that doesnt matter.

Yes it definitely does matter. intent is 9/10s of the law. Of course it matters. Its the 'debate' we are having too.

Same as if a burglar broke into your house armed with a knife and gun, threatened you with the knife you fought back and he then shot you dead, in the UK they would start with a murder charge.

It would not be a 'murder charge' (notice the sneaky little ways you use words you wimp lol),
but,
No, of course not. It would only be 'murder' IF you were certain they were no longer a threat and then you killed them.

Here again shows your total insincerity because IF you saw a crook breaking into a neighbours car.
IF you then ran over to stop him.
IF that crook them pulled out a metal bar and began smashing your head in...

...you would be OUTRAGED if the police did anything less than immediately stop the smashing blows on your head with the fastest and most effective immediate way.
You would NEVER apologize for 'commandeering' the man on the public street and you would actually be INFURIATED if the police did not do anything but instantly fire on the crook before that 6th blow.. 7th blow... killed you.

The Israelis simply wanted to ensure their illegal blockade wasnt broken, full stop.

It is not 'illegal' and they can do what they want.
I don't even say I like it but Israel gets to make their own laws about their own country.
Period.
What are YOU confused about?
They are not allowed in and so they stopped them.
Its very simple.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I know what I saw and the folks on the boat were lynching the Israeli troops, to death

there was NO other option for the soldiers

I have seen many attacks on people around the world and I know when people aim for death, the folks on that boat were in for the kill.

politics aside, they wanted to kill the soldiers

[lime]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I know what I saw and the folks on the boat were lynching the Israeli troops, to death

there was NO other option for the soldiers

I have seen many attacks on people around the world and I know when people aim for death, the folks on that boat were in for the kill.

politics aside, they wanted to kill the soldiers

Ok LT,you know what you saw ,you saw the Israeli troops being lynched to death,so how many of them died and how many casualties did they have?

I just don't trust a story when we are only allowed info from one side.Israel could be right,this could have been a flotilla of Iranians pretending to be British,Irish,German,french etc intent on committing murder.It wouldn't be the first time a nation made illegal copies of other nations passports to carry out murder.

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I know what I saw and the folks on the boat were lynching the Israeli troops, to death

there was NO other option for the soldiers

I have seen many attacks on people around the world and I know when people aim for death, the folks on that boat were in for the kill.

politics aside, they wanted to kill the soldiers

The more I'm watching the videos (which includes some footage from both sides) the more it just becomes very obvious it was a straight-up lynch mob and there is absolutely no doubt it was for full-on murder.

If anything I say the Israelis could not have responded 1 second later than they did and the murder muslims on board are lucky more of them did not get killed.

YES... I will still want to see more information but at this time its becoming very obvious who the murderers are.

One thing I WILL reject from the Israeli argument (and its unnecessary) is showing pocket knives as if catching weapons.
No.
Everyone I know who is working on a ship owns a pocket knife and its not strange to have even large knives carrying cargo, boxes, undoubtedly plenty of ropes etc.
However,
That is hardly as important as the real problem of PEOPLE STABBING THEM WITH KNIVES IMMEDIATELY.

I am no fan of Israel but this time around, the more I see the more I have to say they were in the right here.

*btw.. I do think any and all 'normal passengers' who were not involved and were part of the team SHOULD be released as soon as possible. It does appear that IS what they Israelis are doing.

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=352_1275418848

[eye sea]

I seriously don't know who is right and who is wrong.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by ElProximo

It would not be a 'murder charge' (notice the sneaky little ways you use words you wimp lol),

IF you then ran over to stop him.
IF that crook them pulled out a metal bar and began smashing your head in...

...you would be OUTRAGED if the police did anything less than immediately stop the smashing blows on your head with the fastest and most effective immediate way.
You would NEVER apologize for 'commandeering' the man on the public street and you would actually be INFURIATED if the police did not do anything but instantly fire on the crook before that 6th blow.. 7th blow... killed you.



It is not 'illegal' and they can do what they want.
I don't even say I like it but Israel gets to make their own laws about their own country.
Period.
What are YOU confused about?
They are not allowed in and so they stopped them.
Its very simple.

You lost the argument several posts ago, there is no need to try calling me names again.

The point being the Israelis were carrying out the illegal actions by attempting to take control of several ships that were outside of their waters, What part of that are you still failing to grasp?

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I know what I saw and the folks on the boat were lynching the Israeli troops, to death

Lynching them to death? So how many dead Israelis were carried off any of the vessels?

Originally Posted by ElProximo

The more I'm watching the videos (which includes some footage from both sides) the more it just becomes very obvious it was a straight-up lynch mob and there is absolutely no doubt it was for full-on murder.

If anything I say the Israelis could not have responded 1 second later than they did and the murder muslims on board are lucky more of them did not get killed.

YES... I will still want to see more information but at this time its becoming very obvious who the murderers are.

One thing I WILL reject from the Israeli argument (and its unnecessary) is showing pocket knives as if catching weapons.
No.
Everyone I know who is working on a ship owns a pocket knife and its not strange to have even large knives carrying cargo, boxes, undoubtedly plenty of ropes etc.
However,
That is hardly as important as the real problem of PEOPLE STABBING THEM WITH KNIVES IMMEDIATELY.

I am no fan of Israel but this time around, the more I see the more I have to say they were in the right here.

*btw.. I do think any and all 'normal passengers' who were not involved and were part of the team SHOULD be released as soon as possible. It does appear that IS what they Israelis are doing.

The knives shown by the Israeli spokespeople were all pocket knifes or kitchen knives, not the most effective weapons.

Incidentally one daft question you ever tried to lynch a man who is wearing Combat Body armour and a kevlar helmet? Trust me on this one I have experience of being hit with batons while wearing that sort of kit and being a person inflicting the beating. It would take more than a couple of minutes, if the person on the receiving end is a combat soldier who has trained for this sort of eventuality.

The Commandos used during the assault are extremely well trained and most will have gone in and kicked the crap out of palestinians before.

One other point if the Israelis are so squeaky clean in your eyes how come the UK, The US, the UN, and Uncle Tom Cobley and all, all condemned the operation?

Answer me that one question without the usual insults, flying off at a tangent or your usual avoidance. Bet you cant.

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by Shasown

The point being the Israelis were carrying out the illegal actions by attempting to take control of several ships that were outside of their waters, What part of that are you still failing to grasp?

Once again - it is NOT illegal.

They were not pirates or murderers and I see you have once again done your '..not not admitting you were not wrong..' song and dance.

The good thing about this was Israel releasing video from both sides. It did not take long before public opinion swayed a helluva lot more over to their side of things.

Meanwhile we will all pretend we think these boats are sincerely interested in just helping the poor when we know full well the whole thing is a big pretense, publicity stunt, FU to Israel and for the purpose of provoking this kind of thing for political hay.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by ElProximo

Once again - it is NOT illegal.

They were not pirates or murderers and I see you have once again done your '..not not admitting you were not wrong..' song and dance.

The good thing about this was Israel releasing video from both sides. It did not take long before public opinion swayed a helluva lot more over to their side of things.

Meanwhile we will all pretend we think these boats are sincerely interested in just helping the poor when we know full well the whole thing is a big pretense, publicity stunt, FU to Israel and for the purpose of provoking this kind of thing for political hay.

And again you dance around the question. How come then that the attack and murders have been internationally condemned. That is not only by the Turkish, the UK, the Egyptians, the US, the list goes on and on, lets not forget the UN?

Would you like to slate them all individually or just in one big group?

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by Shasown

And again you dance around the question. How come then that the attack and murders have been internationally condemned. That is not only by the Turkish, the UK, the Egyptians, the US, the list goes on and on, lets not forget the UN?

You keep 'pwning yourself' and the more you do these desperate little word and argument games the worse it is for you.

Look - lets pretend the UN does define this yeah?
Ok.
Then by the authority of YOUR CHOOSING they are not pirates and they are not murderers.
Not according to the UN.
So since YOUR AUTHORITY of choice does not call this piracy or murder then why do you?

Now realistically, it doesn't matter if a body of Muslim nations creates some resolution 'condemning attacks'.
That doesn't make it so.

btw.. more new video out and there again pretty damning stuff for the 'peaceful protesters' who drop a stun grenade in the Israeli boat.

Just as I said at the beginning - these stories always start as 'one is as bad as the other',
but,
as more comes in you too often find out it was Muslim Jihadist trying to kill and murder and who initiate the crimes,
and,
then use ploys and rhetoric to try and get 'victim status' and vilify their victims.

[MassiveTruck]

Joe Biden

http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE6516TK20100603

finally, somebody with some perspective.

[MojoNixon]

Originally Posted by MassiveTruck

Joe Biden

http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE6516TK20100603

finally, somebody with some perspective.

LOL! I bet that leftie liberal Obama supporters are angry now

[MassiveTruck]

Originally Posted by MojoNixon

LOL! I bet that leftie liberal Obama supporters are angry now

LOL, probably but they are not as impulsive over there than over in Europe. They have a huge news industry in the US that gives masses of differing perspectives. We are strangled by the BBC and the money we pump into it.

[MojoNixon]

EU is wasting our money to Gaza. Hamas is controlling money/aid flood, and still they won't do anything to that.

[setanta]

Look, I have Israeli relations, with my uncle in law having served in their equivelant of the Navy Seals, and even I can see what a botch up this is. They've been condemned even by their allies and I really don't know how they can talk themselves outta this one. It'll be interesting to speak to my aunt about it!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by setanta

Look, I have Israeli relations, with my uncle in law having served in their equivelant of the Navy Seals, and even I can see what a botch up this is. They've been condemned even by their allies and I really don't know how they can talk themselves outta this one. It'll be interesting to speak to my aunt about it!

do you condone the the attacks on the Israeli soldiers as they boarded the boats?