[user104658]

I very much agree kirklancaster - the problem here is not men, it's "morons"... and unfortunately, there's a large element of same-brush-tarring.

The problem is that the world is simply full of not-very-intelligent, not-very-civilised people, of both genders. There's a huge element of "monkey see, monkey do" - working class men catcalling because their buddies catcall who do it because their other buddies do it, ad infinitum.

What makes the problem more pronounced with men is that, it's a sad fact of biology, unintelligent men are more likely to think with what's in their pants than unintelligent women. That's not a societal issue, that's simple testosterone level. On that biological level, men and women can simply never be identical. And that's why when seeking "equality", it's foolish to aim for "sameness". We can, and should, be equal in the sense that neither gender is "better" than the other, or favoured in any meaningful way, or has more rights than the other... but we can't ever be equal in the sense of being "the same".

[Kizzy]

So.... by that logic the only men who can pass uninvited comment to a stranger is a good looking intelligent person, whose comments should be accepted without question?

It's not what you say it's how you say it that's the issue here? I'm sorry but I don't feel that was the point of the exercise at all and some have totally missed the point.
By this logic a woman walking through a high class establishment such as a university campus and the harassment she received would be entirely justified.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...assment-victim

What about these good looking, young and well educated men?

[kirklancaster]

So.... by that logic the only men who can pass uninvited comment to a stranger is a good looking intelligent person, whose comments should be accepted without question?

Kizzy - I never mentioned good looks or intelligence in the male in my post, nor did I say that his "comments should be accepted without question". Read my post again and you will see this.

It's not what you say it's how you say it that's the issue here? I'm sorry but I don't feel that was the point of the exercise at all and some have totally missed the point.

I really think that you are so intent on reading into the post what you want to see, that it is you who have 'missed the point' of what I was saying. I didn't say that "it was not what you say it's how you say it". I said "it's not only what you say, but also the way in which you say it." Meaning that if what you say is innocuous, cheery and/or complimentary, and is delivered with an engaging smile in a benign, inoffensive manner, then that has a far likelier chance of being met with a smile in return, than does the boorish, sexist remarks of your average neanderthal lout.

By this logic a woman walking through a high class establishment such as a university campus and the harassment she received would be entirely justified.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...assment-victim

'Class' has never really had anything to do with genuine manners or consideration for others, and being born into the aristocracy or even Royalty, is no guarantee of either 'good looks' or a charming personality - as any close inspection of our Royal Family or Peerage will confirm - so in this context 'High Class' is a misnomer. Especially since now, kids from all strata of society attend university. Additionally, one cannot be too specific in any post, but has to generalise to a degree.

In any event, I did not state or even intimate that making remarks to passing women should be the prerogative of good looking, intelligent, upper class males and should be 'accepted' without question. Boorish sexist remarks are threatening, uncalled for and constitute harassment, and Ignorant Louts are Ignorant Louts - whether they are called Billy Grimneck from Hull, or Algernon Thaddius Warbuck the Third from Heaton Square, Belgravia, and whether they are catcalling an innocent woman in the 3rd aisle of Netto, or whilst enjoying the contents of a Fortnum and Mason's picnic hamper while laying on the clipped grassy river bank at the Henley Regatta.

I did not defend any type of catcalling or harassment of women, and I did not deny that some women will be intimidated by such boorish behaviour. What I was pointing out in my post, was that it is a categorical overreaction because of this, to 'tar' males who may make -innocuous - comments in a friendly and non threatening manner to passing girls, with the 'same brush'.

Please read my post again and you will see that this is true, and that there was, therefore, no need for your response - which is completely off target - because I was not actually stating any of the things you have reacted to

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

So.... by that logic the only men who can pass uninvited comment to a stranger is a good looking intelligent person, whose comments should be accepted without question?

Kizzy - I never mentioned good looks or intelligence in the male in my post, nor did I say that his "comments should be accepted without question". Read my post again and you will see this.

It's not what you say it's how you say it that's the issue here? I'm sorry but I don't feel that was the point of the exercise at all and some have totally missed the point.

I really think that you are so intent on reading into the post what you want to see, that it is you who have 'missed the point' of what I was saying. I didn't say that "it was not what you say it's how you say it". I said "it's not only what you say, but also the way in which you say it." Meaning that if what you say is innocuous, cheery and/or complimentary, and is delivered with an engaging smile in a benign, inoffensive manner, then that has a far likelier chance of being met with a smile in return, than does the boorish, sexist remarks of your average neanderthal lout.

By this logic a woman walking through a high class establishment such as a university campus and the harassment she received would be entirely justified.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...assment-victim

'Class' has never really had anything to do with genuine manners or consideration for others, and being born into the aristocracy or even Royalty, is no guarantee of either 'good looks' or a charming personality - as any close inspection of our Royal Family or Peerage will confirm - so in this context 'High Class' is a misnomer. Especially since now, kids from all strata of society attend university. Additionally, one cannot be too specific in any post, but has to generalise to a degree.

In any event, I did not state or even intimate that making remarks to passing women should be the prerogative of good looking, intelligent, upper class males and should be 'accepted' without question. Boorish sexist remarks are threatening, uncalled for and constitute harassment, and Ignorant Louts are Ignorant Louts - whether they are called Billy Grimneck from Hull, or Algernon Thaddius Warbuck the Third from Heaton Square, Belgravia, and whether they are catcalling an innocent woman in the 3rd aisle of Netto, or whilst enjoying the contents of a Fortnum and Mason's picnic hamper while laying on the clipped grassy river bank at the Henley Regatta.

I did not defend any type of catcalling or harassment of women, and I did not deny that some women will be intimidated by such boorish behaviour. What I was pointing out in my post, was that it is a categorical overreaction because of this, to 'tar' males who may make -innocuous - comments in a friendly and non threatening manner to passing girls, with the 'same brush'.

Please read my post again and you will see that this is true, and that there was, therefore, no need for your response - which is completely off target - because I was not actually stating any of the things you have reacted to

'nor did I say that his "comments should be accepted without question'

'I do not think though, that on an overcast day, if a man smiles at an approaching pretty girl and says; "Morning beautiful - you've just brightened up my day" - or suchlike - that there is anything wrong with this. It is polite, cheery, inoffensive, and not even 'flirty', and in my opinion should be accepted as such by the recipient of the compliment - invited or not.'

With the above quote you are justifying the action, which prompted my comment. And I still feel you missed the point due to the fact it was shown in the video that even innocent 'hellos' and 'good morning beautifuls' were highlighted as unwanted attention.
Whether you feel they are in the same league or have the same connotation is irrelevant.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So.... by that logic the only men who can pass uninvited comment to a stranger is a good looking intelligent person, whose comments should be accepted without question?

Moot point; intelligent, civilized people don't catcall at strangers at all.

Note - people, not men, again, women do it too... it may be less common but that doesn't mean it should simply be overlooked)

It's not what you say it's how you say it that's the issue here? I'm sorry but I don't feel that was the point of the exercise at all and some have totally missed the point.

Not how you say it, but rather the circumstances, surely? I personally don't think there's anything wrong with going up to someone in, say, a cafe if they're on their own / not obviously busy and introducing yourself and seeing if they're interested in talking to you. How else, beyond school / the workplace, is anyone supposed to meet new people without it being contrived? If someone interests you, you should try to talk to them. Who knows how many great opportunities are missed every day because people don't.

I don't think it's even wrong to talk to someone in the street, but the way to do it would be to catch their attention first, say excuse me, or just even give the clear opportunity for them to make small talk, and if they are interested, then they'll stop, if not, then walk on... AFTER they've shown some interest by talking would be the time to offer a compliment, surely. Not to just jump straight in with it. Once you're actually talking to someone I see nothing wrong with compliments and I don't even understand why it's any sort of problem or even has to mean anything, at all, besides being just an observation and a nice thing to say. Telling someone that they have nice eyes, for example, shouldn't have to be a "chat up line"... it's actually really sad that it would always be considered one.

A few weeks ago, a (slightly tipsy, to be fair) elderly gentleman who was at my workplace was telling me that I was a "very handsome lad" and that I "should have been a star of the silver screen!" . I was quite chuffed, really! It should be NICE for people to say nice things. People should be able to compliment - and take compliments - without it always being construed as something sexual or an indication of attraction. Wouldn't it be a better world?

By this logic a woman walking through a high class establishment such as a university campus and the harassment she received would be entirely justified.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...assment-victim

What about these good looking, young and well educated men?

This again I think is slightly irrelevant to the topic, which is modern feminism in the western world. There are obviously huge first and second wave feminist issues in many areas of the world where women genuinely have fewer legal rights and are can often be treated like cattle. Egypt is somewhat better than many, but no one's going to dispute that there are gender equality issues there. Note that well educated doesn't necessarily mean "not pig ignorant". I mean, look at David Cameron...

[Northern Monkey]

Well,Imo,If a woman takes offence to someone saying 'morning beautiful' or similar then it's her problem and she needs to lighten up.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

Well,Imo,If a woman takes offence to someone saying 'morning beautiful' or similar then it's her problem and she needs to lighten up.

Hmmm... I am not offended by compliments but the problem is that once you acknowledge the person giving you a compliment, you've started a dialogue and sometimes that will give people the green flag. So sadly, even nice, well-meant compliments will go unacknowledged by me.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Livia

Hmmm... I am not offended by compliments but the problem is that once you acknowledge the person giving you a compliment, you've started a dialogue and sometimes that will give people the green flag. So sadly, even nice, well-meant compliments will go unacknowledged by me.

True.Atleast it does'nt offend you though like in man hating gender war type of offence.
I've never been one to just complement a woman in the street that i've never met before unless i was drunk tbh.Would'nt even dream of doing it now i'm not a single man anymore,If i did I'd probably think wtf am doing? Afterwards.
Can't see how it would be offensive though.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

Hmmm... I am not offended by compliments but the problem is that once you acknowledge the person giving you a compliment, you've started a dialogue and sometimes that will give people the green flag. So sadly, even nice, well-meant compliments will go unacknowledged by me.

I love Jewish women - I really do, and although I've never seen you, nor know what you look like, l am drawn to your intellect, style and 'ballsyness'.

There Livia - a few genuine compliments. No need to verbally acknowledge but a fleeting smile wouldn't hurt - would it?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I love Jewish women - I really do, and although I've never seen you, nor know what you look like, l am drawn to your intellect, style and 'ballsyness'.

There Livia - a few genuine compliments. No need to verbally acknowledge but a fleeting smile wouldn't hurt - would it?

Why thank you, Kirk. That's very sweet of you to say.

Now don't go following me down the street and assuming we're engaged or anything...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

Why thank you, Kirk. That's very sweet of you to say.

Now don't go following me down the street and assuming we're engaged or anything...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

Well,Imo,If a woman takes offence to someone saying 'morning beautiful' or similar then it's her problem and she needs to lighten up.

Agree.

[erinp5]

Just watched this ....

Youtube video

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by erinp5

Just watched this ....

Youtube video

That's really scary.

[Marsh.]

Hollywood isn't really the best place to conduct such experiments. Not exactly your average street is it?

[erinp5]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Hollywood isn't really the best place to conduct such experiments. Not exactly your average street is it?

True .

[lostalex]

Considering the most dangerous place for as woman to be is in her own home, because the number 1 place won,en are most likely to be attacked or raped or murdered is in her own home, keep on talking...

The fact is, Men kill women, Men kill men. but women don't seem to kill women, why is that?

Str8 men are the real problem and we need a system to start controlling men.,

Here's an idea./

If we put all the straight men on an island they would die out! (let's see how long it takes for the trolls to get the irony)

[Livia]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Considering the most dangerous place for as woman to be is in her own home, because the number 1 place won,en are most likely to be attacked or raped or murdered is in her own home, keep on talking...

The fact is, Men kill women, Men kill men. but women don't seem to kill women, why is that?

Str8 men are the real problem and we need a system to start controlling men.,

Here's an idea./

If we put all the straight men on an island they would die out! (let's see how long it takes for the trolls to get the irony)

Alex, look at you... an American doing irony :-) x

I could post you a list of homosexual psychopaths and killers, but the truth is - and don't we all already know this - some people are good and some people are bad. Men can be more violent than women, women can be more sneaky than men. Women are more likely to poison someone, men are more likely to shoot someone. The best we can all do is try to keep ourselves safe and not overreact wildly when someone says "Smile, it might never happen!".

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Livia

Alex, look at you... an American doing irony :-) x

I could post you a list of homosexual psychopaths and killers, but the truth is - and don't we all already know this - some people are good and some people are bad. Men can be more violent than women, women can be more sneaky than men. Women are more likely to poison someone, men are more likely to shoot someone. The best we can all do is try to keep ourselves safe and not overreact wildly when someone says "Smile, it might never happen!".

it didn't take long.

the point is, women have a right to live in peace, and using the concept that
"some women like getting that kind of of attention" is not good enough.

Most women DONT want that kind of attention, and that fact that we are all animals is not a good enough excuse.

Hetero Men are getting away with rape and murder. Hetero Men are the problem.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by lostalex

(let's see how long it takes for the trolls to get the irony)

Originally Posted by lostalex

it didn't take long.

I hope you're not calling me a troll, are you Alex?

Gay men, by percentage, are probably just as bad, and just as good as heterosexual men. People are people. Some are black, some are white, some are gay, some are straight, some are good some are bad.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Livia

I hope you're not calling me a troll, are you Alex?

Gay men, by percentage, are probably just as bad, and just as good as heterosexual men. People are people. Some are black, some are white, some are gay, some are straight, some are good some are bad.

omg!!!! gay men are just like every other human being? shocking!

but who has the power?

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Livia

I hope you're not calling me a troll, are you Alex?

Gay men, by percentage, are probably just as bad, and just as good as heterosexual men. People are people. Some are black, some are white, some are gay, some are straight, some are good some are bad.

Funny how people say this ALL THE TIME when they want equality, yet they love to blame 'certain' people for other problems.

these people pick and choose when to be offended by something and they choose when something is not offensive

its so hypocritical and pathetic.

[Ninastar]

im all out of sass today!

[Marsh.]

Get a room you two.

and leave the door open just a tad...

[Ninastar]

no way

i am shutting that door so no disgusting white het men get in and kill us